Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread

[Confred]

@McHotcakes The Glyphs and the the special attacks being crammed the way they are is to closer mirror the official Glyph Of Lava Resistance, which says the figure gains the Lava Resistance special power and then immediately lists what that power does without a space or extra bold title. Before researching Glyphs for Kratos, I did the powers on Glyphs very much the same way, but we are trying to be as official as possible and the others didn't do what we are proposing. I think it was Dysole that originally brought this up. As long as the card looks clean, I suppose I'm ok. But I would like it as official as possible. Researching more of official Glyphs may be warranted.
@Dysole Cestuses may be the proper plural, but the source has the items simply listed as Cestus. and your updated wording in the quote says "one" for both. The second one should be "two".
@TREX that version of Claws was a proof of concept without perfect wording, or mechanical configuration for squads. In the source, Kratos summons generic undead dudes to help you and they fade away after awhile. Instead of creating any special squads, I figured we could summon previously destroyed figures, making it like a puzzle piece - Kratos destroys figures, now here's something to do with the dead!
~Whenever this figure destroys an opponent's figure, you may use this Glyph to place the destroyed figure on this card. Use this Glyph to remove any figure from this card to do some effect - heal/autowound~

Icarus Wings - I'm fine with winding down on the Glyphs and focusing more on Kratos to get him out the door.

1: BY THE GODS: "Kratos cannot drop Godly Glyphs during movement." vs "When dropping Godly Glyphs, Kratos must drop Glyphs on empty spaces." vs no restrictions.
2: BLADES OF EXILE: Just Reach 2?
3: VENGEANCE OF KRATOS: Merge back with Blades Of Exile or stay separate power? Only require two skulls vs requiring an ever increasing amount of skulls vs also requiring a d-20 roll? Limit extra attacks to 4 vs no limits?
4: CLIMB FROM TARTARUS: Effect happens immediately vs at beginning of turn? Finalize wordings.
5: Finalize values

1-5 don't have to be done all at once. We could hone in on one at a time until each is agreed and passed until all 5 are done.

[Dysole]

Cestuses was simply in response to asking if the plural was correct. dok provided the Gem of Lava Resistance which is the closest we have to another glyph but it does kind of break from precedent. We're in uncharted territory here so the actual wording is difficult.

As for the power as it read when you had it.

Are we attacking a figure? Yes. Add auto skull. Does figure have 7 defense or a destructible object? Add two more auto skulls.

It might not technically read this but the wording I provide gives 1 auto skull at all times and 2 auto skulls if attacking a DO or 7 defense figure.

~Dysole, informationally

[chas]

There is a short discussion of the recent games with Taeblewalkers's group playing HOF here:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...t=49667&page=9

See Post #107.

[Confred]

@Dysole the way you worded it does not match the discussion we had for/with Percy Jackson

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Confred

@Dysole the way you worded it does not match the discussion we had for/with Percy Jackson

Can you clarify? I don't recall this.

~Dysole, trying to make sure we get this right

[TREX]

@Confred , I like the idea of the claws of hades, it just needs some tweaking.
On Blades of Exile, we did adjust it to a figure within 3 clear sight spaces. Unless I'm not reading it correctly. I do think the 3 range reach is good.
Vengeance of Kratos, I think it is a separate entity than Blades of Exile. In short, I think they should stay separate. Blades of Exile is stating how he does his normal attacks, many attacks he can do. 4 attacks should be plenty for a figure on one turn.Vengeance of Kratos specifies that he may keep attacking using special and normal attacks if you roll enough skulls. I like how we have molded it to roll enough skulls to keep attacking, I think to go further would just complicate how he attacks. I do like the cap on how many attacks he gets to do. No cap, means he could infinitely attack if he keeps rolling skulls up to his Bow range of 9. I would like this guy to not be way more than 300 points. Climb from tartarus is placed at beginning of your next turn to represent him making his way back from hades. The only stipulation on that last part where you immediately roll it one last time so you can have one final chance to come back, and still if you roll poorly you lose the game right then anyway. We do need to discuss a point cost. After we finish a few of the glyphs, I want to do a play test or two just to get a point value in range for what he can actually kill for the points. I don't know why I dont like Cestuses. I would stick to just Nemean Cestus, because that is how it is referred.

[Confred]

@TREX This is where I'm at with Kratos. Any comments? Adjustments?

BY THE GODS
Every time Kratos destroys an opponent’s Unique Hero, place a Godly Artifact Glyph on this card. Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts during his movement. By The Gods can place a maximum of 5 Glyphs on this card.

BLADES OF EXILE
If an opponent's figure is within 3 spaces of Kratos, and its base is no more than 4 levels above Kratos's height or 4 levels below Kratos's base, Kratos may add 2 to his Range when attacking that figure with a normal attack. Blades Of Exile cannot be negated by any special power on any Army Card, Glyph, or terrain.

VENGEANCE OF KRATOS
If Kratos attacks with a normal or special attack and rolls at least 2 skulls, Kratos may continue attacking with normal or special attacks until he does not roll at least 2 skulls. Kratos may attack up to 4 times this turn.

CLIMB FROM TARTARUS 18
Before removing an order marker, if Kratos is destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 18 or higher, remove all wounds from this card and place Kratos on any empty space that is not adjacent to any opponent's figure and is no higher than any figure's base. If Kratos is destroyed and is your only figure on the battlefield, before removing his figure from the battlefield, Kratos may immediately attempt to Climb From Tartarus.

Originally Posted by Dysole

Can you clarify? I don't recall this.

~Dysole, trying to make sure we get this right

Percy Jackson adds 1 when near water. Percy Jackson adds 2 when on water (not 3 for both)
Cestus adds 1. Cestus adds 2.

Edit: My post disappeared, so if this turns out to be a double post, I'll edit this one out.

[TREX]

@Confred , This is where we had adjusted and modified the card up to the most previous version. Taking feedback from all members that contributed. This looks quite different from what you last posted. Also the reach distance is not correct in your version. All the current text has been taken from suggestions that this is the proper wording in how the powers should be written down. I have read all the post as we went to get it to its current state. When I seen all of the changes in your post, I thought we were working backwards. I'm pretty sure there was enough discussion in how things were to be worded. Unless you are set in why they should be changed to the exact wording of yours. The only thing I had changed past JC McMinis last card update was taking off the last sentence of BY THE GODS, because it said the same basic thing as the first sentence.

KRATOS
Demi God
Unique Hero
Warrior
Ruthless
Medium 5

Move 6
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 4

Life 6

BY THE GODS
For every Unique Hero Kratos destroys, place a Godly Artifact on this card that has not been previously placed. A maximum of 5 Godly Artifacts may be placed on this card. Godly Artifacts may never be removed from this card until Kratos is destroyed.

VENGEANCE OF KRATOS
After making a normal or special attack, if Kratos rolled at least 2 skulls, he may attack again with a normal or special attack. Kratos cannot attack more than 4 times per turn.

BLADES OF EXILE
If an opponent's figure is within 3 spaces of Kratos, and its base is no more than 4 levels above Kratos's height or 4 levels below Kratos's base, Kratos may add 3 to his Range when attacking that figure with a normal attack.

CLIMB FROM TARTARUS
At the start of each of your turns after Kratos has been destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 18 or higher, immediately place Kratos on an empty space on the battlefield that is not higher than the base of any other figure on the battlefield. If Kratos is destroyed and there are no other figures you control left on the Battlefield you may immediately roll for Climb From Tartarus.

This was the last version of the card before I took the last sentence off of By the Gods. We do however need to come up with a point value. I will try some play tests with him tonight at say 300pts for starting.

Spoiler Alert!

[Confred]

@TREX I'll gladly compare and explore

Originally Posted by TREX

Demi God

Demigod

Originally Posted by TREX

BY THE GODS
For every Unique Hero Kratos destroys, place a Godly Artifact on this card that has not been previously placed. A maximum of 5 Godly Artifacts may be placed on this card. Godly Artifacts may never be removed from this card until Kratos is destroyed.

Originally Posted by Confred

BY THE GODS
Every time Kratos destroys an opponent’s Unique Hero, place a Godly Artifact Glyph on this card. Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts during his movement. By The Gods can place a maximum of 5 Glyphs on this card.

1) "For every" vs "Every time": Tagawa/Bloodlust vs Life Drain: Life Drain is the more updated power and "Every time" is the more updated wording. "For every" doesn't sound bad so if you really want this version I won't fight it, except I do implore you add back "opponent's" Unique Hero to prevent abuse of Vikings and such.
2) "that has not been previously placed" is awkward phrasing that originated from a modified version of a proposal I had once made during a time when the only limit was that Kratos couldn't personally carry more than 5. Since then we have adjusted the power to prevent Kratos from dropping Glyphs and moved the limit of 5 from Kratos to the power itself. If we want the 5 to be in stone different, perhaps we could use "maximum of 5 different Godly Artifacts"
3) "A maximum of 5 Godly Artifacts may be placed on this card." vs "By The Gods can place a maximum of 5 Glyphs on this card.": Your version is all encompassing so no other power may place Godly Glyphs on Kratos and normally picking up may even count as placing?. My version specifies that the power can only place a maximum of 5. (Again, I'm with with "By The Gods can place a maximum of 5 different Glyphs on this card.") another variant could be: "This power can place a maximum of 5 different Glyphs on this card.".
4) "Godly Artifacts may never be removed from this card until Kratos is destroyed." vs "Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts during his movement.": I admit I was surprised at this one for I thought you liked the change in a previous post. So why did I make the change? "until Kratos is destroyed" sounded odd to me and I couldn't think of an Army Card with comparable wording (which is not to say there isn't a comparable card.). When researching Glyphs, I read that figures can drop Glyphs only during movement. I thought a creative workaround was to say "Kratos cannot drop Glyphs during movement." Rereading the rule book for this post, during movement is the only time a figure may drop a Glyph. If a figure is destroyed, Glyphs are "lost" and placed on empty spaces. (Double-checked how we worded Godly Artifacts, and we're still good, no revisions needed there). This power can thus be shortened even further. "Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts."

Out of time before work, I'll post the variants against each for pondering

Originally Posted by TREX

VENGEANCE OF KRATOS
After making a normal or special attack, if Kratos rolled at least 2 skulls, he may attack again with a normal or special attack. Kratos cannot attack more than 4 times per turn.

Originally Posted by Confred

VENGEANCE OF KRATOS
If Kratos attacks with a normal or special attack and rolls at least 2 skulls, Kratos he may continue attacking with normal or special attacks until he does not roll at least 2 skulls. Kratos may attack up to 4 times this turn.

Originally Posted by Trex

BLADES OF EXILE
If an opponent's figure is within 3 spaces of Kratos, and its base is no more than 4 levels above Kratos's height or 4 levels below Kratos's base, Kratos may add 3 to his Range when attacking that figure with a normal attack.

Originally Posted by Confred

BLADES OF EXILE
If an opponent's figure is within 3 spaces of Kratos, and its base is no more than 4 levels above Kratos's height or 4 levels below Kratos's base, Kratos may add 2 to his Range when attacking that figure with a normal attack. Blades Of Exile cannot be negated by any special power on any Army Card, Glyph, or terrain.

Originally Posted by Trex

CLIMB FROM TARTARUS
At the start of each of your turns after Kratos has been destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 18 or higher, immediately place Kratos on an empty space on the battlefield that is not higher than the base of any other figure on the battlefield. If Kratos is destroyed and there are no other figures you control left on the Battlefield you may immediately roll for Climb From Tartarus.

Originally Posted by Confred

CLIMB FROM TARTARUS
Before removing an order marker, if Kratos is destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 18 or higher, remove all wounds from this card and place Kratos on any empty space that is not adjacent to any opponent's figure and is no higher than any figure's base. If Kratos is destroyed and is your only figure on the battlefield, before removing his figure from the battlefield, Kratos may immediately attempt to Climb From Tartarus.

[McHotcakes]

Originally Posted by Confred

The Glyphs and the the special attacks being crammed the way they are is to closer mirror the official Glyph Of Lava Resistance, which says the figure gains the Lava Resistance special power and then immediately lists what that power does without a space or extra bold title. Before researching Glyphs for Kratos, I did the powers on Glyphs very much the same way, but we are trying to be as official as possible and the others didn't do what we are proposing. I think it was Dysole that originally brought this up. As long as the card looks clean, I suppose I'm ok. But I would like it as official as possible. Researching more of official Glyphs may be warranted..

Well Glyph of Lava Resistance isn't an official glyph, its C3V. And while C3V does some amazing work I have to question lumping the wording together on the card. It mentions a power, describes it, but doesn't actually separate it from the clause where it was mentioned. Its a little too messy imho. Especially when its a special attack, where you have to include range and attack value.

@TREX I think the card looks good. The only thing that needs to be changed that I can see is on CLIMB FROM TARTARUS. It should read an 18 or higher, not a.

I honestly don't know where to even start pricing Kratos. He has so many variables and potential powers that its going to be tricky to get him right.

[TREX]

@McHotcakes , I think it looks pretty good as well, I'm cool with some more little changes to get the wording more legitimate, but do not want to go back to the drawing board. @Confred , any changes that we make after hearing the other comparisons I will update so we can make Kratos card final. I just don't want to rehash the whole thing out again. I think we are super close to how it needs to be.(with a little wording changes.) Then we can move on.

[Confred]

@TREX I'm in full agreement for pushing Kratos forward. For me it's not so much as going back to the drawing board, it's more like getting him off the drawing board. History serves, working on the Glyphs were a breather to give us some time before finalizing each of the special powers on Kratos' Army Card.
So the next step would then be finalizing wording while sniffing out any opportunities for change before the final finalizing.
I'm going to use the above color coded post as a guideline for this step, of course including any feedback others may add, spending time on analysis and then banging out each power with feedback and approval.
Based on the review of BY THE GODS, how about this version:

BY THE GODS (A)
Every time Kratos destroys an opponent's Unique Hero, place a Godly Artifact on this card. This power can place a maximum of 5 different Glyphs on this card. Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts.

BY THE GODS (B)
Every time Kratos destroys an opponent's Unique Hero, place a different Godly Artifact on this card. This power can place a maximum of 5 Glyphs on this card. Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts.

BY THE GODS (C)
Every time Kratos destroys an opponent's Unique Hero, place a Godly Artifact on this card. This power can place a maximum of 5 Glyphs on this card. All Glyphs must be different. Kratos cannot drop Godly Artifacts.

And pie on the face for Gem Of Lava Resistance! When it was posted as an example pages ago, I just assumed it was an official Glyph because I don't know all the D&D stuff. Serves me right for not double checking. When I get home and on the computer I'll do some deep personal researching on official Glyphs to make sure for sure our Godly Glyphs are correct, to as you say, not go backwards.