OEAO's Legacy Power Rankings

[Lazy Orang]

One other thing I think can be said for Kaemon over Q10 is simply being single-spaced. Makes him much more manoevrable generally and less of a large target, though he does have more trouble crossing rivers.
But yeah, Q10 is the stronger figure discounting points. 120 is a lot easier to find room for than 150, though.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Originally Posted by Arrow Grut

IMO, Q10 and Kaemon are apporpriately differentiated point-wise. I'd rather have Q10, but then again I'd rather have Q9, but hey 30 points is 30 points should the army not fit 150. Also Kaemon has synergy with Hamamoto Taro, which boosts his best ability Counterstrike.

The lynch pin of any successful army.

[Astroking112]

I knew that I should've taken Hatamoto Taro instead of Zelrig. It was a rookie mistake.

[GIBraag]

Hi guys, returning casual player here.

Why is Hatamoto Taro considered an A+ hero nowadays?

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by GIBraag

Hi guys, returning casual player here.

Why is Hatamoto Taro considered an A+ hero nowadays?

Matthias won this year's GenCon main event "with" Hatamoto Taro. HT was actually just used to fill the last 130 points, but was never played, because the army was 1 figure over the limit and HT just cheered from the sidelines. His A+ rating is either strict adherence to an "anything that wins GenCon must be A+" policy, or tongue-in-cheek.

[GIBraag]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Matthias won this year's GenCon main event "with" Hatamoto Taro. HT was actually just used to fill the last 130 points, but was never played, because the army was 1 figure over the limit and HT just cheered from the sidelines. His A+ rating is either strict adherence to an "anything that wins GenCon must be A+" policy, or tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks - I had an inkling it was an in-joke.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by GIBraag

Thanks - I had an inkling it was an in-joke.

FWIW, the only person to drop Hatamato in 9 games was dok in the semis. Everyone else dropped a dwarf or Marcu, with @WOOKIE even putting an OM on him in their T16 match.

Edit: also, definitely not everything that wins is an A+. Consistency, matchups, and efficiency are how I rank units.

[OEAO]

Let's unpack this.

Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV (80, A+) eh I guess since she makes everything better, but I don't think she's game warping enough for a separate tier
She is the single most cost-efficient unit in the game. At 120, she'd still be an A+ unit. Q9 or Rats with that kind of cost increase would drop to A.

A+
Marcu Esenwein (20, A-) Pretty much the go to option if you have 20 points left but at the same time "curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal". I don't think wannok does enough for a letter grade upgrade
Dropped back down to A, an elite A for sure.

Marro Warriors (50, A) Easily one of the best units in the game and in non timed games, can beat many units they shouldn't on stats alone. I would rather give them to an opponent than Q but after that, no way. Do have some bad matchups. Not quite sure they're an A+ but I'll buy it
MWs are very efficient for 50. Their stats are nuts. Sure, they have bad matchups, but they're only 50 points, and well worth it. The other 2 great 50 point options are also very army-dependent on when they are As. All-around, best 50 point filler in the game.

A
10th Regiment of Foot (75*, A-)4th are still better. :P
Yes, but not a grade better.

A-
Blade Gruts (40*, B) Eh... I think they're more B+ since they have to work a lot harder to crack a sturdy defense.
True, poor matchups against Q9 and Nilf/Greens keep them in check, but if you told me I had to win a tourney without a Tier 1 army, they're what I'd take. Surprisingly good matchup vs Stingers and able to beat anything else (other than Nilf and Q9).

Mezzodemon Warmongers (65*, B+) Even a single special attack can wreck them, but they are brutal if you don't have one
A- specifically as a tech of 1x or 2x. Anymore and they drop down to B+.

Ogre Pulverizer (100+, B+) I don't think the Chasers do enough for bonding option 3
Low A- for sure, but I think he's efficient enough to warrant the bump.

B+
Atlaga (90, A-)
Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80, B) I probably wouldn't bring either Kyrie to an event but I'd probably bring Atlaga before Concan because range and 7 move Raelin.
Concan continues to impress me with his incredible stats and PK boost.

Eldgrim the Viking Champion (30, A-) This guy is an amazing early glyph grabber. Should be put back where he was.
Agreed.

Fire Elemental (35*, A-) Mostly because we can't all be dok and have 18 of them right? 4/4 with auto wound? I don't follow this one.
Absolutely horrible vs range. Good melee can beat them. Solid units though, keeping them at a mid-high B+.

Frost Giant of Morh (140+, C+) Not a C+, but I think just a B instead of a B+. 140 is a lot of points.
True, but his effect on opponents is staggering. Can-openers are nice.

MacDirk Warriors (80*, C+)2 defense is brutal and I think that keeps them in B/B- territory
Raelin is a must.

Minions of Utgar (110*, A-) I never like facing minions because they can be devastating. Conversely, they can annoyingly whiff on two dice a lot.
Too pricey.

Nakita Agents (120, B) They're good tech, but I thought they were fine at B
Agreed.

Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-SOTM (120, B) I dunno. Unless I'm doing bring 2 swarm Rae tends to be hard for me to justify.
Will be devoting a whole post just on Raelin SOTM. Spoiler: I now think she is quite bad.

Sentinels of Jandar (110*, A-) I actually think they're worse than minions because more powers bypass defense.
Definitely, but I'm not sure they're as bad as Protectors.

Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM (170, A-) You are a dude. This is a man. Nuff said.
He's ok. 1 attack per turn at that price range is meh. 15 more and you have Nilf.

Sonya Esenwein (45, A-) Huh. Yeah point totals do tend to make her less of an auto include.
I don't think you should ever run her with Cyprien. Cyprien is good at 150, not so good at 195.

Swog Rider (25*, B)
Tarn Viking Warriors (50, C+) Why do I keep getting surprised by units not where I thought they were already?
Tarn are still underrated by some.

Warriors of Ashra (50*, B) Range vulnerability but again already thought they were here
Dropped back down.

B
Crixus (90, B+) I feel like he's a very cheap very hard to kill beat stick. Definitely take him over several heroes you have ahead
Perhaps he's a B+, but I'm not sure I see it.

Fyorlag Spiders (40*, C+)[/COLOR] I don't see it with no Quahon available
Bonding is good. Move is the most underrated stat in the game.

Kozuke Samurai (100, B-) Did not realize how fun this unit was until last Gencon. Agreed.
3x5s with an 8 move threat range? Yes please.

Laglor (110, A) 7 range, SA, makes krav better, what am I missing?
Not worth the points.

Sir Denrick (100, B-) Eh feels fairly mediocre to me.
There's worse ways to spend points. Knights are good.

Sir Hawthorne (90, B+) Dude is cheap and has a special attack. Feel like this is better than Denrick
Dude has Stab in the Back.

Warforged Soldiers (80*, B+) They have always performed well for me and can be brutal in some matchups
Very vulnerable to range.

Wyvern (100+, B-) I don't see it. Bond with an okay squad and their positioning power is okay and they don't have high survivability.
See spiders, move is good. 4/4 with 4 life at 100 is pretty efficient coupled with 7 move flying.

B-
James Murphy (75, B)
 I guess although he's better than shotgun
I'd say they're pretty even.

Wolves of Badru (80*, C+) 3 defense and points make it hard for me to agree
specifically at 1 squad for poor man's Kozuke.

C+
Mind Flayer Mastermind (100+, C) Agree. Still mad at the fire isles game I got no enslaves.

C
Templar Cavalry (120*, C-) They're really vulnerable to range. I don't see it.
Move is good. 5 dice at 8 move on a common is worth a C to me.
Warden 816 (90, C-) I guess. I actually feel he's at least C+
Eh, a little fragile.

D
Roman Archers (55*, C-) I actually think Roman archers and Raelin is better than you give it credit for. They're not good against squads but 6 range attack of 6 will end heroes. Biggest weakness is the engagement clause.
Squads are pretty prevalent. Definitely scary for heroes. Perhaps worth the C-.

[Dysole]

Some quick hits.

I think we disagree on how we're defining A+, which is why Raelin gets sorted into an S class for you and not for me.

I still feel your overestimating blades and spiders, but I follow your logic. I also think having some units get bumps for "tech purposes" in x1, x2 but having lower value in higher numbers feels odd to me. Can't place why yet.

I think there's a couple units we disagree more on but I'll just focus on the two we brought to main. I guess maybe you can help me understand why boosting PKs is valuable for a melee unit that needs OMs. PKs thrive on mobility so a cheerleader that requires adjacency doesn't feel like a big boost.

Templar was a meta call that worked fine, but I think I definitely got some breaks to make what happened happen. They are really vulnerable to range even with Raelin and the high cost makes it hard.

~Dysole, who forgot to pop in periodically and razz you for not responding to her

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Some quick hits.

I think we disagree on how we're defining A+, which is why Raelin gets sorted into an S class for you and not for me.

I still feel your overestimating blades and spiders, but I follow your logic. I also think having some units get bumps for "tech purposes" in x1, x2 but having lower value in higher numbers feels odd to me. Can't place why yet.

I think there's a couple units we disagree more on but I'll just focus on the two we brought to main. I guess maybe you can help me understand why boosting PKs is valuable for a melee unit that needs OMs. PKs thrive on mobility so a cheerleader that requires adjacency doesn't feel like a big boost.

Templar was a meta call that worked fine, but I think I definitely got some breaks to make what happened happen. They are really vulnerable to range even with Raelin and the high cost makes it hard.

~Dysole, who forgot to pop in periodically and razz you for not responding to her

On Blades specifically, I feel like I can take down other melee, range, etc. 6 move is really nice on bonding melee. Again, other than Q9 (an A+) and Nilfheim (an A) they are quite capable. They eat Stingers alive and can handle 4th and 10th pretty well. Chomp is also super nice vs other melee that spends a premium on higher defense.

On Techs, I'm basing these rankings on efficiency and usefulness in their best possible usage. Some squads are better with more copies, where others are better in smaller numbers. Mezzos are a prime example where you really don't want more than 2 squads because at that point you pretty much are just auto-lose to some things.

On Concan, he's mainly a B+ just for raw stats. I think you're undervaluing quite how easy it is to set him up with minimal OM investment- jam him up against a priority target and whack them once. While PKs love mobility, they also don't mind having extra flexibility to have 1 or 2 of them per OM function as a Bruiser (Bruisers are units that throw 4-5 red dice, Can-Openers are units that throw 6+ dice, just in case anyone was wondering). Note that you shouldn't only be worried about Concan's buff; rather, 1 or 2 can make use of it while the others threaten in standard PK fashion. This gives them extra flexibility and utility. In Main, I was able to leverage Concan's buff in I think every game, which was pretty big. In the RtW rounds, not a single one of my opponents was able to, and both the PKs and Concan were quite a bit weaker in that scenario.

I don't know that I really care about Templar one way or the other. I debated not bothering any units below B- because the lines start getting pretty blurred (well, more blurred than the difference between letters in the higher ranks).

Thanks for giving your thoughts, I hope more people do!

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

On Blades specifically, I feel like I can take down other melee, range, etc. 6 move is really nice on bonding melee. Again, other than Q9 (an A+) and Nilfheim (an A) they are quite capable. They eat Stingers alive and can handle 4th and 10th pretty well. Chomp is also super nice vs other melee that spends a premium on higher defense.

My personal problem with the Blade Gruts is that they often have to give up their extra move to stay close to Grimnak for that extra defense die. 2/2 base stats can be rough, especially for squads that often rely on numbers in a figure-count limit.

6 move is of course great, but I don't think that the Blade Gruts have enough staying power or attack to truly be able to leverage it in many cases. Personally, I think that B+ is pretty fair for them (they're not on the level of Greenscales and other A-tier squads, but they're close).

Originally Posted by Dysole

I still feel your overestimating blades and spiders, but I follow your logic. I also think having some units get bumps for "tech purposes" in x1, x2 but having lower value in higher numbers feels odd to me. Can't place why yet.

I think that it makes perfect sense to rank units based on the most efficient number of them that you'd want to take. You generally don't want more than a couple Uncommon Heroes, for example, so we would rate the Fen Hydra based off of those parameters instead of assuming that you filled your army with them.

I do think that these units that work best in small quantities should be noted in the ranking explanation, though, to ensure that the reason for their bump is apparent.

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

On Concan, he's mainly a B+ just for raw stats. I think you're undervaluing quite how easy it is to set him up with minimal OM investment- jam him up against a priority target and whack them once. While PKs love mobility, they also don't mind having extra flexibility to have 1 or 2 of them per OM function as a Bruiser (Bruisers are units that throw 4-5 red dice, Can-Openers are units that throw 6+ dice, just in case anyone was wondering). Note that you shouldn't only be worried about Concan's buff; rather, 1 or 2 can make use of it while the others threaten in standard PK fashion. This gives them extra flexibility and utility. In Main, I was able to leverage Concan's buff in I think every game, which was pretty big. In the RtW rounds, not a single one of my opponents was able to, and both the PKs and Concan were quite a bit weaker in that scenario.

To be fair, some of your opponents brought something like Zelrig and Greenscales (and didn't read the Phantom Knights card very thoroughly).

As for Concan, his stats are certainly impressive. Do you feel like he has similar utility in Knights of Weston builds, or that he really only works best with the PKs?

[vegietarian18]

Phantoms having Stealth Flying makes it much easy to get extended value out of Concan's attack and defense boost