The Case for a Valhalla Customs Master Set

[IAmBatman]

I think full buy in from C3V would be important to making such an effort work.

[Pumpkin_King]

Stay tuned. Hopefully we’ll be talking about something in a little bit here.

[Tmac2200]

I bought 3 of the base set, are the figures going to be common squads or unique? I think having all these squads in the box for cheap is all the more reason to make them common. Where else will it be this easy to get multiple common squads in good numbers affordably?

[lefton4ya]

Originally Posted by Tmac2200

I bought 3 of the base set, are the figures going to be common squads or unique? I think having all these squads in the box for cheap is all the more reason to make them common. Where else will it be this easy to get multiple common squads in good numbers affordably?

Agree. I see the new set as somewhere between RoTV and the D&D master set where it is mostly unique, but most of the squads common with even some of the heroes should be uncommon. Yes you will "waste" the extras if you buy multiple, but you did so anyway with SotM and D&D master sets. However try not to make the commons so awesome you want to have more than 3 sets (i.e. like Marro Stingers) - maybe either make them super-expensive, lock-up, utility, or bonding units like Calvary, Deathreavers, Mezzodemons, or Marrden Nagrubs respectively. The same goes for Battleball, but that's a later discussion.

[All Your Pie]

As long as the C3V is transparent and communicative about what figures they are and aren't willing to use, I think a separate community project could go a long way here. What I think would be unproductive is a project that directly competes with the C3V by designing cards that use the same miniature for different designs. This would compromise AotP's utility as a gateway set for 'Scape, as it leaves new players a confusing choice of which cards to use for their figures.

For figures that the VC is unwilling to touch, however, I think a lot of value could be created with a separate project to make VC-compatible Heroscape cards for their figures. That way anyone with the AotP sets could still use all the figures in a unified setting without any wasted potential. It would also remove any later possibility of redundancy, as the VC seems unlikely to greatly broaden its standards on what miniatures it is willing to use.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

Agree. I see the new set as somewhere between RoTV and the D&D master set where it is mostly unique, but most of the squads common with even some of the heroes should be uncommon. Yes you will "waste" the extras if you buy multiple, but you did so anyway with SotM and D&D master sets. However try not to make the commons so awesome you want to have more than 3 sets (i.e. like Marro Stingers) - maybe either make them super-expensive, lock-up, utility, or bonding units like Calvary, Deathreavers, Mezzodemons, or Marrden Nagrubs respectively. The same goes for Battleball, but that's a later discussion.

For right now, the group that’s heavily discussing this is thinking that all Unique Units is the way to go. While getting loads of commons would be great, after all I have 4X of the first box, creating the proposed 24 units, some as commons/uncommons, would be fairly tasking on any group. Also, since this can be branded as buying 3 boxes will get you everything you need to play the game, and enjoy the game, this leaves designs for common units generally out. 1 squad of Drow or Stingers pretty much sucks, after all.

[Dad_Scaper]

Please people, do not expect more than we can deliver here.

Even if we announced we are using this box today - and that announcement is assuredly not coming - we would not be releasing it as a combined "master set" for years.

There is lots of helpful feedback for us here, but please understand that our design cycle is slow. It must be. I am very proud of our track record, but if we started rushing things along then mistakes would be made. And mistakes in a single unit or small number of units could compromise the quality of our entire body of work, and how welcome we are (and how welcome we should be) in your homes and at your tournaments.

We won't even start a design thread for a mini until we have some direction for the design. That's how careful we are about our personnel resources, and about selecting minis. It would take us a *long* time to get a project like this up and running, and when we were done we would have - to my mind - (and NB's objection notwithstanding) an excessive number of unpainted minis.

May I humbly suggest that you guys get something going here? Call it a new project. Farm out responsibilities somehow. If the C3V ends up using some or all of the minis, that's cool. But for those who feel like these minis are crying out to be used, then please use them! If your designs - the designs of this hypothetical group - are good enough, then local TDs might allow them. I know that I would allow them, if they presented as a good set.

Please don't expect us to commit to using these boxes right away, because we aren't built to make a commitment like that. And, even if we did, you would be holding on to them for a *long* time, which would (to my mind) partly defeat the purpose of responding to this thread's best points, which include the barrier of entry piece. Telling interested people that if they get these boxes then they'll have a Master Set in 2021 is not really helping new 'Scapers hop on board.

All that said, I'm not saying (1) we won't use these boxes, because we might use some of them, and (2) we aren't listening. There are things we *can* do to address some of these issues, and this conversation has pushed us in (I think) a very promising direction toward some new things for us. And, also, (3) please consider forming something up to use these boxes. You don't need the C3V. You don't need me. I think it would be a fun thing for the community to do, together. And nobody will stop you, and if the C3V uses the same minis for some other purpose, so much the better, because you'll already have them. If you like, I'll help organize a group, though I will not have the time to commit to participate in an active role after launch.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Instead of trying to convince C3V, you all should start your own group and make customs out of the Arena sets. There are a ton of great designers here and I think a new group designing fantasy customs would be well received.

One of the key components of this project has to be a compatibility with VC in my eyes. We want to make a new Master Set that can introduce people to the game, but it's hard to do that without the support of the people currently continuing it.

I don't want to start competing with C3V, SoV, or any of the existing community-led projects. If C3V were to announce two years from now that they were going to use one of these minis, then new users would no longer have an easy introduction to VC unless they outright ignored one of the versions.

Similarly, we would want to ensure that we don't introduce a synergy that causes problems for C3V down the line, leading to a broken interaction. SoV is less of an issue here because everything is done openly, but if we want to have consistency, we need to make sure that everyone is at least somewhat on the same page.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I mean, this was my suggestion for a reason...:

I agree with this sentiment. This project is a massive undertaking, and not one that I just want to push onto C3V. I (and I'm sure many others) are more than willing to help see this through in any capacity, and I think that this is unrealistic for C3V alone to accomplish within a reasonable timeframe without messing up their production schedule.

I know that you're working on a more formal proposal, so I'll leave it at that for now, but I think that this is a very valid direction to take the project.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Please people, do not expect more than we can deliver here.

Even if we announced we are using this box today - and that announcement is assuredly not coming - we would not be releasing it as a combined "master set" for years.

There is lots of helpful feedback for us here, but please understand that our design cycle is slow. It must be. I am very proud of our track record, but if we started rushing things along then mistakes would be made. And mistakes in a single unit or small number of units could compromise the quality of our entire body of work, and how welcome we are (and how welcome we should be) in your homes and at your tournaments.

We won't even start a design thread for a mini until we have some direction for the design. That's how careful we are about our personnel resources, and about selecting minis. It would take us a *long* time to get a project like this up and running, and when we were done we would have - to my mind - (and NB's objection notwithstanding) an excessive number of unpainted minis.

May I humbly suggest that you guys get something going here? Call it a new project. Farm out responsibilities somehow. If the C3V ends up using some or all of the minis, that's cool. But for those who feel like these minis are crying out to be used, then please use them! If your designs - the designs of this hypothetical group - are good enough, then local TDs might allow them. I know that I would allow them, if they presented as a good set.

Please don't expect us to commit to using these boxes right away, because we aren't built to make a commitment like that. And, even if we did, you would be holding on to them for a *long* time, which would (to my mind) partly defeat the purpose of responding to this thread's best points, which include the barrier of entry piece. Telling interested people that if they get these boxes then they'll have a Master Set in 2021 is not really helping new 'Scapers hop on board.

All that said, I'm not saying (1) we won't use these boxes, because we might use some of them, and (2) we aren't listening. There are things we *can* do to address some of these issues, and this conversation has pushed us in (I think) a very promising direction toward some new things for us. And, also, (3) please consider forming something up to use these boxes. You don't need the C3V. You don't need me. I think it would be a fun thing for the community to do, together. And nobody will stop you, and if the C3V uses the same minis for some other purpose, so much the better, because you'll already have them. If you like, I'll help organize a group, though I will not have the time to commit to participate in an active role after launch.

I don't think we have a problem with forming a new group or structure to do this, so long as we can earn C3V's respect with good designs and find acceptance. I phrased the proposal as a VC Master Set rather than a C3V one for this reason, because it makes plenty of sense for this to be a project that the C3V doesn't have to internally house and lead all on their own.

My main concern is still compatibility. The customs side of HeroScape is already a little more complex to get into than an official-only approach, so we would want to ensure that should we accomplish designs matching the excellent VC standards, they won't be overridden in a couple of years when C3V finds a use for one of the minis. We can do our best to maintain VC compatibility, but we can't do anything about future units and releasing new versions of our Master Set units each VC wave is hardly viable.

That said, I wouldn't ask for VC's seal of approval before results are shown, either. We want to ensure that great units are being put out as new additions to the VC canon, not to lock away these units under the hope of using them all. I think that so long as we can strike a balancing act here, both projects can build off of each other and really benefit the community.

I don't think that this is a project that C3V needs to do on their own, but I do think that it's one that they need to be open to incorporating under the VC umbrella in the future.

[Dad_Scaper]

I'm not sure what you mean about putting something under the "VC umbrella." You don't need us, and trying to get a consensus about approving a unit inside the C3V, absent the firm structure of the SoV (or something very much like it) is unlikely be successful.

Please just do your thing. I encourage you (whoever it is) to have a real, disciplined organizational structure. I do not think the C3V or the C3G would have been able to be productive for all the years those two have been productive, but for their structure.

The alternative to having an organized large workshop is to have a small one. The SoV is relatively unstructured, and the various map-approving groups have all been unstructured. Which has suited all of them, because they are small.

My sense from FS's post is that a group focused on these may already exist. Great! Make sure it's set up the way you want and have at it. You don't need anything from anyone else, but many of us will be happy to pitch in somehow as needed, if you ask.

I will say that one way this could work is just to put these units together as a slow train to the SoV. Over time, they should all get the C3V/SoV approval you want. It can be done. Otherwise, just don't worry about us at all, and do a good job.

[Tornado]

Well said DS. Though it is pretty much exactly what I said, but it sounds better coming from you.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Well said DS. Though it is pretty much exactly what I said, but it sounds better coming from you.

Thanks, T.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

It's little less of a hard stance recently, with the announcement of a 3D printed figure.

Also Dad_Scaper was voicing his opinion. It's a common opinion, but it is an opinion. I don't completely agree with it, because I like the value of adding that level of easy to access figures, that can be purchased for cheap. A jumping on point for a big group like this has a lot of potential, and I like the idea, even using the unpainted non-translucent figures, just because of the value it would add.

I'm going to leave now. It's almost 6am and I need to sleep.

Yes! My posts are (normally) just my opinions. I worry in these types of conversations that some people might overlook that, and it's an important point.

[Tornado]

To be fair though, and this is assuming you have a vote on what C3V actually does, your opinion is pretty important.