Age of Annihilation - Backer Trend and Discussion

[Grungebob]

Hogg makes a good point. Once Heroscape is no longer viewed as a mass market toylike battle game, and it starts trying to be a hobby market minis game, it has to compete against and be compared to rivals who are way ahead in terms of knowing that market.

[Master Roshi]

Right, they're stuck in a difficult middle ground where it's hard to satisfy both parties, casual gamers and wargamers, but committing to one or the other would require some changes to Heroscape's identity.
Try to appeal to a more casual audience, which requires cheaper components to meet the price point they're comfortable with. This is essentially what AOTP was trying to do by using cardboard terrain.
Or, appeal to the wargamers, which requires competing with other big players in that space like Warhammer which already has many dedicated players who spend their spare money (plus their children's college fund) to by the next set of figures.

Sticking to the middle requires educating non-wargamers to how wargaming is made and sold, and also convincing wargamers who are already financially dedicated to other games why they should dip their feet in Heroscape as well

[rudyvalentine]

I don’t know that I buy into the idea that Heroscape can no longer exist as a mass market game simply based on the very recent success of Heroquest. It’s for sale at GameStop. I’ve seen the main set and expansions in physical stores that aren’t Magic the Gathering dens.

And it’s a lot of plastic miniatures. Just not big, highly detailed ones like we’re seeing in AoA. But the same size as a lot of the heroes and squads of classic scape.

It seems like they really swung for the fences here and thought they had a bigger community than the one that made Heroquest a big success and we’d be all over these big, beautiful, high quality minis, but the high production cost has blurred the lines between what Heroscape used to be and what they envision it being.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by rudyvalentine

I don’t know that I buy into the idea that Heroscape can no longer exist as a mass market game simply based on the very recent success of Heroquest. It’s for sale at GameStop. I’ve seen the main set and expansions in physical stores that aren’t Magic the Gathering dens.

And it’s a lot of plastic miniatures. Just not big, highly detailed ones like we’re seeing in AoA. But the same size as a lot of the heroes and squads of classic scape.

It seems like they really swung for the fences here and thought they had a bigger community than the one that made Heroquest a big success and we’d be all over these big, beautiful, high quality minis, but the high production cost has blurred the lines between what Heroscape used to be and what they envision it being.

heroquest’s presence in retail was predicated on its successful crowdfund campaign priming the pump.

[nyys]

If it was just minis I don’t think it would be an issue. It’s the terrain and its gobs and gobs of plastic. That’s the biggest difference… and a costly one at that.

[Hogg]

HeroQuest isn't really being sold at retail. GameStop is the only store I've seen it in. My FLGS has several hundred board games as well as hosting Magic tournaments and they don't even have HeroQuest in the system as an item they can order. Hasbro/AH doesn't seem to have a retail distribution network.

I have been wondering about the cost of plastic for the hex tiles and I compared them to some other Hasbro products. An average $25 action figure weighs about the same as five of the 7 hex tiles. However, the action figure has a lot more paint and engineering. The figures have up to 50 individual parts and many colors of paint. The hexes are one piece, don't need any further engineering, and only have one color of paint (if any: snow, water, shadow.) Plus the action figures need to be hand painted, the hex tiles could be done by a machine.

Based on all that, would you pay $2.50 for a seven hex tile?

[rudyvalentine]

GameStop is a national retail chain. I know it’s not available at Walmart and Target but the point is there are a lot of GameStops across the county and someone can walk into one with no board game or hobby gaming knowledge and see Heroquest on a shelf and buy it. That’s how I discovered Heroscape in 2007.

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

I'd back 5 sets if they'd update the campaign to unlock all of the stretch goals at like 8,001 backers.

[caps]

Originally Posted by TheSparkleInYourWater

I'd back 5 sets if they'd update the campaign to unlock all of the stretch goals at like 8,001 backers.

I think the latter is a highly unlikely outcome; hopefully the former is something you'll change your mind about

[keglo]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I think what is missing in this conversation is an understanding on who the Heroscape customer was back then and who they continue to be today.

When Heroscape was sold at my local Walmart, it was placed right next to the Monopolies and Candy Land’s of the board gaming world. Games that usually retailed anywhere between $10-40. At the time, Heroscape was considered a premium board game with a premium price. This was a time before Kickstarters so spending that much money on a board game was considered a luxury.

Heroscape captured middle America who for the first time, experienced a version of a tabletop miniatures board game. These are individuals who probably had a little spending money each week making the booster model of Heroscape a perfect fit for them. These were consumers who didn’t have the desire to join the hobby miniatures world, nor the funding to support what is a very expensive hobby. Heroscape was a mass market game that any income class could enjoy.

Fast forward to today and one of the criticisms I see levied against the Heroscape consumer is that they are very insular and don’t understand how much board games cost today followed by a statement of “if only they knew how much of a bargain this all is.” Let me turn that phrase around and say this: the hobbyist board game collector who lives on Kickstarter is in fact very insular and doesn’t understand that the rest of the world thinks spending $200+ for a board game is absolutely insane.

As much as we would like to say that Kickstarters and other community funded projects are the norm, they aren’t. They are still a niche market in the overall board gaming industry. And Tabletop miniatures gaming? A niche of a niche. There’s a reason why no one outside your gaming group has even heard of these things.

There are many reasons why people keep asking for lower price points. The main reason, in my opinion, is because they simply don’t want to spend more than $50 at a time on what they consider a board game that is in the same vein as Monopoly. To them, spending $50-100 on any board game is already a tall ask.

That is your mainstream Heroscape customer. Someone who wants an affordable board game that they could expand at their leisure. These are people who would happily spend $250 on Heroscape through the course of a year. These are not people who would spend $250 all up front.

Avalon Hill wanted the Heroscape consumer to adopt the Kickstarter mindset, while the Heroscape consumer wanted Avalon Hill to adopt the Monopoly mass market board gaming mindset. Hence the massive disconnect in the product meeting the expectations of the consumer.

From a "mainstream Heroscape customer", very well said. In my opinion, you are spot-on.

[brak88]

Originally Posted by TheSparkleInYourWater

I'd back 5 sets if they'd update the campaign to unlock all of the stretch goals at like 8,001 backers.

That would be nice. Immediately after the campaign started, my only real complaint was how high those stretch goals are. I don't know how the scaling worked out so all that was offered from doubling the goal amount was just five minis.

$4M would place it amongst the most successful board game campaigns on Kickstarter ever. Heck, I've only found a few Kickstarters in general that had a minimum funding goal at $2M, and that's not considering the fact this only has one high priced tier.

We're currently at basically $872,000. That's not a small feat.

[Tmac2200]

I am unbelievably disappointed by this entire thing. I almost wish the carrot never got dangled in front of our collective faces with this project. Seeing Heroscape that we'll never get really sucks. I was fine with C3V, SoV, C3G, ect. Now I will know I am missing something whereas before I was happy having completed my classicscape collection. I need to save all these early cards and use them for customs.