The Book of Sub-Zero

[Arkham]

Lobster’s tests:

Originally Posted by L0B5T3R

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Sub-Zero (@230 points)


Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Sub-Zero (230), Kingpin 2, Ant-Man (Scott Lang) Dr. Oc, Bodyguard (775) VS. Dr. Doom (Hasbro), Awesome Android, Doombots x3 (780)

Spoiler Alert!

Game Summary: Awesome Android went down early and Ant-Man was able to sneak up on the Doombots. Dr. Doom couldn’t protect them and two were killed before Doom. Doom did get to resurrect once, however. With all the Uniques surviving for Team Kingpin, they were able to divide up the OMs across the board and maintain full boosts for the entire game.

Unit Summary: Sub-Zero had a decent game, but Dr. Ock went off on the big team Doom heroes. Sub-Zero did allow Awesome Android to Mimicry his Ice Clone Counter, due to some good positioning from AA.

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): 1 wound to Dr. Doom (successful Ice Blast), 1 wound to Awesome Android.
• (Special Attack/other): N/A
• Damage Taken: 1 wound from Awesome Android who mimicried Ice Clone Counter.

Who won? List of figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Kingpin’s Crew: Sub-Zero with 4/5 Life REMAINING, Kingpin 5/5, Dr. Oc 1/4, Ant-Man 1/3, Bodyguard.

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Sub-Zero (230), Masahiro Arashi, Gamora, Boomerang 1 (840) VS. Luke Cage, Spider-Man (Peter Parker, C3G) Spider-Girl, Iron Fist (840)

Spoiler Alert!

Game Summary:Early in the game, Spider-Man uses Web Slinger on Arashi but rolls a miraculous 5 blanks from height. Arashi’s Ruthless Counter Strike deals 2 wounds to Parker. Parker goes down to Arashi! (See below) In round three after Arashi deals 3 wounds to Iron Fist, he is selected for Ruthless Command. Gamora engages and destroys the protector of K’un-Lun. Arashi goes down to Luke, taking OM 2/3 with him. Spider-Girl goes down to Sub-Zero (see below). Gamora puts a wound on Luke and doubles it with her Godslayer. In the end the plethora of Counter-Strike type pwers (mostly Ice Clone Counter) dealt enough wounds to the Crime Fighters for the win.

Unit Summary: Sub-Zero has a major play in the second round. He successfully selects Peter for his Ice Blast but is engaged with and attacks Luke Cage. His attack on Luke does zero wounds but when Arashi attacks Peter, Spider-man rolls a 4 for Spidey Senses and his 1 defense cannot block Arashi’s 3 skulls. Parker is destroyed. Sub-Zero successfully selects Luke Cage twice for Ice Blast 7 but does no harm to the Fighter. Luke whiffs his attack on Sub-Zero and with the X reveal he is able to destroy Luke with his Ice Clone Counter.

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): None.
• (Special Attack/other): 4 wounds to Spider-Girl with Ice Clone Counter X reveal (Destroyed). 2 wounds to Luke Cage with Ice Clone Counter X reveal (Destroyed).
• Damage Taken: 4 wounds from Luke Cage.

Who won? List of figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Assassins are victorious: Sub-Zero 1/5 Life REMAINING, Gamora 5/5, Boomerang 4/4.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: No problems noted here, decent wins for his teams in both games. His Ice Blast is absolutely savage against a Spidey-Sense type ability, could be a KO against a Speed Dodger, something I realized should be tested (if you haven’t already) as I wrote this up.


GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: One thing that might need to be cleared up is when to reveal the X for Ice Clone counter. Before or after the opponent rolls attack dice? Sub-Zero has enough tricks up his sleeve to be really fun. His Ice Clone Counter was very fun and it’s a good reimaging of Counter-Strike. He works well with Arashi. Ice Blast + Ruthless Command is a nasty combo! Overall great design.

[Arkham]

I’m thinking we drop Sub’s defense by 1. That should help make him slightly more vulnerable, and make Ice Clone Counter not as deadly. I was surprised he managed to deal so many wounds with it, as it’s essentially a once per round counter strike.

We’re gonna need a solid tester to put some hands on this one I feel. With so many wins I’m not sure where else to turn here. Though in the first game Sub seemed to play a minor factor. So it’s still hard to tell what’s driving the success.

[Lazy Orang]

I've nearly finished Test One - let me get some thoughts together, on ICC in particular.

[Lazy Orang]

Name Of The Playtest Unit: Sub-Zero

Army Test 1
Map: Island Plane Crash (no glyphs)
Armies:
Sub-Zero, Elite League Assassins, Man-Bat Assassins, 2x Hand Ninja (700 points)
vs.
Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, Michelangelo (700 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Sub-Zero’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: 1 wound on Michelangelo, 2 on Leonardo, 1 on Raphael.
Sucessful rolls for Ice Blast: Four
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Ice Blast: One on Michelangelo (arguably), 2 on Leonardo
Times moved with Slide: Four
Leaving engagements avoided with Slide: 2 from Leonardo, 1 from Raphael
Figures moved through with Slide: Michelangelo, once, Leonardo, once
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Slide: 1 on Michelangelo (arguably), 1 on Leonardo.
Wounds blocked with Ice Clone: 2 from Michelangelo, 2 from Raphael, 1 from Leonardo.
Wounds inflicted with Ice Clone: 2 on Raphael, 1 on Leonardo

Round One

The Turtles claim the initiative and Don advances, failing to move Leo with his Gauntlet.
Three Man-Bat Assassins fly forwards and three Hand Ninjas advance.
Mikey runs forwards, before yelling Cowabunga! and running forwards.
Three Man-Bats fly forwards, two closing in to strike Mikey from height, but both blows are blocked and one is countered, as Mikey knocks one of the Man-Bats out. Three Hand Ninja advance.
Leo activates the X on Raph, who leaps forwards, before Leo leaps forwards himself.
One Man-Bat grabs Donatello and flies him up the plane, as he and the other Man-Bat strike him from high ground, but Don blocks both blows. One Ninja advances from reserve and two others climb further up the plane, throwing shurikens at Don, but both are blocked.

Round Two

The Lin Kuei claim the initiative. A Man-Bat drags Don towards the Lin-Kuei side of the battlefield, and both Man-Bats strike Don from height, inflicting two wounds and throwing his Anti-Grav Gauntlet into the sea. Two ninja on the plane throw shurikens at Mikey, but fail to harm him. Another ninja advances and throws a shuriken at Don, but it bounces off his shell.
Leo activates the X on Raph, who runs forwards and knocks out a Ninja. Leo activates the 3 on Don, who knocks out a Man-Bat Assassin. Leo runs forwards.
Three Elite League Assassins advance. A ninja on the western side of the plane advances and throws a shuriken across the chasm at Leo, shockingly inflicting two wounds. Two other Ninja throw Raph and Don respectively, striking them from height, but each blow is blocked.
Mikey leaps forwards and knocks out a Hand Ninja.
One Elite League Assassin advances while two charge Don, striking him for a wound, leaving him nearly dead. One Ninja advances from reserve and throws a shuriken at Don, failing to harm him, while another strikes him with a katana from height, running him through. The ninja on the other side of the plane throws a shuriken at Leo, to no avail.

Round Three

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Raphael, who leaps forwards and knocks out one Elite League Assassin while another vanishes away. Leo then activates the 3 on Mikey, who charges an Elite League Assassin and knocks him out. Leo then leaps across the chasm and knocks out the Hand Ninja there.
The last Man-Bat Assassin flies over Mikey, picking him up, dragging him to low ground and striking him from height with a deadly blow that the turtle shockingly manages to block. The last undeployed Ninja advances from reserve while two run up the plane and throw shurikens at Mikey on low ground, inflicting a wound.
Mikey leaps back to the top of the plane and knocks out the last Man-Bat Assassin.
The last Elite League Assassin runs up and strikes Raph from height, but is blocked. One Ninja runs up and strikes Raph with his katana, shockingly inflicting a wound, while the two other ninja throw shurikens at Mikey, failing to harm him.
The last Elite League Assassin buries his knife into Raphael’s shoulder, inflicting two wounds. The last three ninja throw their shurikens at Mikey, inflicting two wounds.

Round Four

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Raphael, who knocks out the last Elite League Assassin and one of the Hand Ninja. Leo then leaps back across the chasm and knocks out the last two Hand Ninja, eliminating the Lin Kuei’s first turn and leaving them with only their Grandmaster, Sub-Zero, who still waits in reserve.
Michelangelo, perhaps uncharacteristically, waits.
Sub-Zero advances.
Michelangelo charges Sub-Zero, but, due to the Ice Clone, fails to hurt him with his first strike. Yelling 'Cowabunga!’ he strikes again, but the Ice Clone again blocks his strike.
Sub-Zero freezes Michelangelo, slides beneath him and strikes him from height from behind, ripping his spine out - Fatality! He would have needed the bonus from either Slide or Deep Freeze to do so, but either would have been sufficient.

Round Five

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Raphael, who charges Sub-Zero and strikes him twice from height - the first blow is blocked easily, and Sub-Zero damages Raph with his Ice Clone, while the second is blocked with another Ice Clone. Leo charges Sub-Zero - the first blow is blocked with an Ice Clone, but the second inflicts a wound.
Sub-Zero Ice Blasts Raphael - he cannot Slide behind him, but he Slides away from Leonardo and strikes Raph from low ground. Raph blocks the blow, despie his frozen state, and remains alive.
Leo activates the 3 on Raph. Raph strikes Sub-Zero twice from height, inflicting a wound with the second blow. Leo vaults over Raph and strikes Sub-Zero twice from height, but fails to achieve anything.
Sub-Zero Ice Blasts Leo and Slides through him, striking him from behind for two wounds, neither of which would have been inflicted were it not for Ice Blast and one of which was thanks to Slide.
Sub-Zero freezes Raph and slides to height to strike him, ripping his heart out. Fatality!

Round Six

Leo claims the initiative, leaps behind Sub-Zero and strikes him, but is blocked and countered with Ice Clone, and killed. Fatality!

Sub-Zero Wins! - Sub-Zero 2 wounds.

Overview: Okay, let's start with the good parts - in general, I really like him. Ice Blast and Slide combine to make him a really fun, interesting, tactical and dangerous fighter, and I like that - that 4 attack when combined with those can still scare the crap out of plenty of people.
Ice Clone Counter... I have issues. As you were saying, this seems to be the problem with the design, to me. He feels unthematically tough and that counter-strike is scary. This Ice Clone is a special move in the game, one you specifically have to input and can't use all the time, and yet... here he's using it constantly. It doesn't feel like a special move so much as extreme natural toughness, or special, pseudo-magical metal armour. Against normal attacks, this guy has the defences of Captain America, plus a once per-round counter-strike. That feels a bit too strong, and doesn't feel rigtht thematically either. I did a little research, looking up some gameplay videos on YouTube, and I have to say... nothing about the amount people are using Ice Clone screams ‘passive ability' to me. Rather than dropping his defence, I would strongly encourage making the entirety of Ice Clone - not just the counter strike element, all of it - tied to using the X. This feels more thematic for a power that really shouldn't be passive, making him feel more like he's using a special move to block you and less like he's become equipped with a Vibranium Alloy Shield, and makes him even more tactical and strategic to play. This may result in a small points drop, but I think that's worth it for a figure who's more fun to play both with and against - I really like the idea of having to choose my time each round to deploy the Ice Clone.
Sub-Zero was a beast here, and dangerous, and that I have no problem with. What I have issue with is that he didn't feel droppable enough while he was laying the smack down, and this change to Ice Clone would fix that.

[Arkham]

I’m fine with that change. That said, I’m glad it was a close game on your end.

Let’s do that change and carry on with a defense of 5.

Updated

[Yodaking]

Good solution Lazy, I like that.

[Lazy Orang]

Excellent! Would you like me to run a repeat of the Turtles game with that change, then one more? Not 100% certain when I'll be able to do those, but I'll certainly get on them.

[Arkham]

That’d be nice. Then if ronin or Soundwarp can get to him I think that should be enough testing post change as long as everything checks out.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

That’d be nice. Then if ronin or Soundwarp can get to him I think that should be enough testing post change as long as everything checks out.

Well, I'm glad you said yes, because the first game's done! Fait accompli, ladies and gentlemen!*


Name Of The Playtest Unit: Sub-Zero

Army Test 1
Map: Island Plane Crash (no glyphs)
Armies:
Sub-Zero, Elite League Assassins, Man-Bat Assassins, 2x Hand Ninja (700 points)
vs.
Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, Michelangelo (700 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Sub-Zero’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: 2 wounds on Leonardo, 1 on Raphael.
Sucessful rolls for Ice Blast: Three
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Ice Blast: One on Leonardo, 1 on Raphael
Times moved with Slide: Two
Leaving engagements avoided with Slide: 1 from Raphael
Figures moved through with Slide: Leonardo, once, Raphael, once.
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Slide: 1 on Raphael
Ice Clone used: Twice
Wounds blocked with Ice Clone: None
Wounds inflicted with Ice Clone: 2 on Raphael.

Round One

The Lin Kuei claim the initiative. Three Man-Bat Assassins and three Hand Ninja advance.
Don advances and fails to move Mikey with his Gauntlet (I swear I have no luck with that thing).
The Man-Bat Assassins advance, and one swoops in to strike Don from height, but is blocked, and three Hand Ninja advance.
Mikey leaps forwards.
A Man-Bat picks Don up and drops him between the planes and all three gang up on him, inflicting two wounds, causing him to drop his gauntlet. The three Hand Ninja on the front lines move up and fling shurikens at Don, inflicting a wound.
Leo activates the X on Raph and both advance.

Round Two

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Don, who strikes twice, knocking out a Man-Bat. Leo activates the 3 on Mikey, who leaps forwards, knocking out a Man-Bat. Leo leaps forwards and knocks out a Hand Ninja.
The last Man-Bat flies over Mikey and picks him up, depositing Mikey in the chasm between the planes, next to Don, and inflicting a wound on him before striking Don to no avail. Two Hand Ninja throw shurikens at Don, but fail to harm him.
Raph advances.
The three Elite League Assassins advance and the four ninja on the front lines strike, killing Don and inflicting a wound on Mikey.
The Elite League Assassins advance and the Hand Ninja throw shurikens at Mikey, inflicting a wound and leaving him near death.

Round Three

The Lin Kuei claim the initiative, and the three Elite League Assassins charge Leo, striking him for a wound. The three Hand Ninja throw shurikens at Mikey, but have no effect.
Leo activates the X on Mikey, who leaps up to strike the ninja on the other side of the plane’s fusilage, knocking him out. Raph leaps up and attempts to knock out an Elite League Assassin, but he blocks the first blow and Vanishes from the second. Leo strikes two Elite League Assassins, both of whom Vanish.
The Elite League Assassins strike, inflicting a wound on Leo and a wound on Raph. One Hand Ninja strikes Raph for a wound while another throws a shuriken at Mikey, which bounces off his shell, while a third advances from reserve.
Leo knocks out one Elite League Assassin, but another vanishes from his blow.
Two Elite League Assassins strike Leo, but both miss wildly. One Hand Ninja throws a shuriken at Mikey while two strike Raph in melee, one from low ground, and inflict a wound on him.

Round Four

The Lin Kuei claim the initiative and the Elite League and Hand Ninja strike, inflicting a wound on Leo.
Leo activates the X on Mikey, who charges the last Man-Bat and knocks him out. Leo then activates the 3 on Raph - he attempts to strike an Elite League Assassin, who promptly Vanishes, before knocking out a Hand Ninja. Leo then knocks out an Elite League Assassin and a Hand Ninja.
The last Elite League Assassin strikes Leo, but is blocked. A Hand Ninja throws a shuriken at Mikey, shockingly killing him. Another Hand Ninja advances and throws a shuriken at Raph, to no avail.
Leo knocks out the last Elite League Assassin and a Hand Ninja.
Sub-Zero advances and the last Hand Ninja charges Raph, but his blow is parried.

Round Five

The Lin Kuei claim the initiative (again!). Sub-Zero freezes Raph and charges him, striking him from low ground to no avail. The last Hand Ninja strikes Raph for a wound.
Leo activates the X on Raph, who knocks out the last Hand Ninja before striking Sub-Zero from height. He rolls 4 skulls, and Sub-Zero conjures an Ice Clone, getting very lucky and not only managing to block the blow but make Raph pay, inflicting a wound on him. Leo charges Sub-Zero and strikes him twice from height, inflicting a wound.
Sub-Zero fails to freeze Leo and slides behind him, striking him for a wound.
Leo activates the 3 on Raph, who charges Sub-Zero and strikes him twice, inflicting three wounds. Leo strikes Sub-Zero twice, but is blocked.
Sub-Zero freezes Leo and rips his spine out. Fatality!

Round Six

Raph claims the initiative and strikes Sub-Zero twice. The first blow is blocked, while the second is also blocked, and Sub-Zero causes Raph to receive a wound with an Ice Clone.
Sub-Zero freezes Raph, slides behind him and shatters him (which he was only able to do thanks to the combination of both Ice Blast and Slide). Fatality!

Sub-Zero Wins! - Sub-Zero 4 wounds.

Overview: He feels better now. He feels... killable. I'd say he way probably looking closer to the 200/210 range now than 230 - don't know pricisely where you want him, but I'm definitely liking him more with the more tactical Ice Clone and wouldn't want to go back. If you want to boost him, I'd say to do so in other ways, but generally, I'm liking him like this.

*There are no ladies. I am the only lady who has access to this thread, save Dysole, who never posts. I am addressing people who do not exist. Go me.

[Arkham]

I’m fine if he comes in closer to 210. Not too hung up on a specific point value as long as he’s useful and fun at the point value he ends up at.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

*There are no ladies. I am the only lady who has access to this thread, save Dysole, who never posts. I am addressing people who do not exist. Go me.

Ahem. I lurk like crazy. I've just fallen off on the checklist stuff. No go me.

That said, I know close to nothing about this character and I think you'll be fine once you implement lazy's suggestion for balance concerns.

~Dysole, who couldn't resist and will try to be more active

[Soundwarp SG-1]

I can probably get some tests in late tonight after the Caps game.