The Pre-SoV Workshop

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

I think part of what throws me is the change from Granite Guardians to all Elementars breaks some of the parallelism. I'd expect a power with such a similar name to effect the same pool of figures. If the word "elementars" in the power was just replaced with "granite guardians" I'd be fine with reusing the power name in this way. This might just be me though.

That's fair, but if it only says Granite Guardians then the Defender would not benefit from this ability, something that he very much needs. Currently the only other Elementars are the Granite Guardians, so it's almost exactly the same.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

I think part of what throws me is the change from Granite Guardians to all Elementars breaks some of the parallelism. I'd expect a power with such a similar name to effect the same pool of figures. If the word "elementars" in the power was just replaced with "granite guardians" I'd be fine with reusing the power name in this way. This might just be me though.

But the powers are not the same. One affects Granite Guardians, and the other affects Granite Guardians and some other stuff. That's why I like it as an improved variation of Gain High Ground.

[Dysole]

CLIMB EVERY MOUNTAIN, FORD EVERY STREAM

~Dysole, who has no issues with Gain Higher Ground

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Dysole

CLIMB EVERY MOUNTAIN, FORD EVERY STREAM

~Dysole, who has no issues with Gain Higher Ground

We love a Sound of Music fan. I think I plan to submit this version and see what happens!

[Blue Trails]

The new Diorite Defender looks good! Although I see no issue with the name Gain Higher Ground, I think I can understand the opposing view. Perhaps a synonymous name such as "Claim High Ground" would be different enough while still referencing the Granite Guardians.

[quozl]

How much playtesting did you do between the final revision and submission to the SoV?

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by quozl

How much playtesting did you do between the final revision and submission to the SoV?

Just a few games against myself. Enough to reassure myself that Raelin/Krav/DD wasn't busted, although there might be other creative pods I haven't thought about.

Edit: mean table games, not online. Got the C3V Playtesting tournament on the brain

[Leaf_It]

I have wanted to make the Leader of the Specter's of Aldorn since before I ever submitted to the SoV. After several attempts, and a lot of feedback from various friends in the Utah scene, here is Master Aldorn, and his illusory minions.

NAME = MASTER ALDORN
GENERAL = VYDAR
PLANET = ARCTORUS
SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = ARCHMAGE
PERSONALITY = TERIFYING
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

Life: 5
Move: 5
Range: 5
Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Points: 90

Summon Visages:
After taking a turn with Aldorn, you may attempt to summon any previously destroyed Visages of Aldorn. Roll the 20-sided die once for each destroyed Visage of Aldorn. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may place that Visage of Aldorn within 3 spaces of Aldorn. After rolling for all destroyed Visages, you may Immediately take a turn with the Visages of Aldorn.

Command of Terror:
All terrors with in 2 spaces roll an additional attack die.

Specteral Movement: Just Levitation and Phantom Walk in one ability.

NAME = Visages of Aldorn
GENERAL = Vydar
PLANET = Acrtorus
SPECIES = Visage
UNIQUENESS = Unique Squad (2 figures)
CLASS = Terrors
PERSONALITY = Mindless
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5

Life: 1
Move: 4
Range: 1
Attack: 2
Defense: 0
Points: 30

Aldorn's Command
Visages of Aldorn cannot have order markers placed on their card at the beginning of the round. Order markers cannot be moved into this card by any ability or special power on any army card, or glyph. Visages of Aldorn can never make leaving engagement attacks. If Master Aldorn is Destroyed, all Visages of Aldorn are immediately Destroyed.

Incorporeal
Enemy figures may move through all Visages of Aldorn.

Specteral Movement: Just Levitation and Phantom Walk in one ability.

One of the goals with this design is that the Specters don't need to have Aldorn. Aldorn is nice to have, but he's not so useful that you feel like you can't play them effectively without him. Aldorn can be played without the Visages, but with them he is an army unto himself, though without a screen of some kind, he'll usually fall pretty easily.

The Visages of Aldorn are effectively 2 additional attacks for Aldorn. They are not strong enough to hold ground, and they cannot tie anything up. Unless you keep them very close to Aldorn, (and/or have a unique attack glyph) their attacks are pretty pitiful, but they are still harmful enough that you can't ignore them. You can never rule them out though. Even after they die, Aldorn can bring them back about 40% of the time.

[Scytale]

I don't think the Specters need a leader at all or even want one, but let's see.

I like the tightly-bound pairing. The combination is pretty neat and will provide unique gameplay, Specters or no.

Don't combine Levitation and Phantom Walk. I'd much rather have two powers if there's the space, and there should be plenty.

It's not worth all the text to prevent order markers on the Visages army card. It's not a gameplay concern; taking turns with 2 2/0 figures isn't going to break the game. It's just flavor, and a lot of text for effectively nothing. What's important is the gameplay, not the card, and taking full turns with them isn't good enough to matter.

I kinda of feel like the Visages should be 20 and Aldorn 100. Let them be semi-ok filler (or change so that they are auto-destroyed if Aldorn is not on the field).

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I don't think the Specters need a leader at all or even want one, but let's see.

By intention, even if this design passes. they still don't need him. He helps, but not significantly. The synergy was intended to be soft.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Don't combine Levitation and Phantom Walk. I'd much rather have two powers if there's the space, and there should be plenty.

Generally 4 powers is frowned upon, but if you think it's fine, I'll leave them separated.

Originally Posted by Scytale

It's not worth all the text to prevent order markers on the Visages army card. It's not a gameplay concern; taking turns with 2 2/0 figures isn't going to break the game. It's just flavor, and a lot of text for effectively nothing. What's important is the gameplay, not the card, and taking full turns with them isn't good enough to matter.

I'm fine with that. I'll remove the parts that prevent Order markers from being on the card. I think I'll move the "no leaving engagement attacks" part to "Incorporeal" then, and just have 1 less ability.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I kinda of feel like the Visages should be 20 and Aldorn 100. Let them be semi-ok filler (or change so that they are auto-destroyed if Aldorn is not on the field).

I did consider forcing them to be destroyed if he was no longer on the board. I specifically wanted Aldorn to be usable without the Visages. He's best with them, but you can play him without them just fine. They are priced based on how much I think they improve him on average. If they can get height, and be within 2 hexes of him, they become 2 extra attacks of 4, in addition to his own attack of 4, which could become 5 with height. They might die easily, but they come back relatively easily too. In the right situation, with a slightly hot D20, the Combo of Aldorn + Visages is really powerful. I don't mind allowing them to be played without Aldorn, but by themselves, they are probably worth only 10 to 15 points. With Aldorn they are at least 30. That value needs to be attached to one or both of them. Since they are really bad without him, I believed it would be better to add the value to them, so that Aldorn was still viable on his own.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

By intention, even if this design passes. they still don't need him. He helps, but not significantly. The synergy was intended to be soft.

Generally 4 powers is frowned upon, but if you think it's fine, I'll leave them separated.

Four powers is frowned upon because 90% of the time it's a red flag that the unit has not been refined down to its best version. But if four powers are right for the design, then it's right. Either way, mashing powers together doesn't "fix" it.

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I specifically wanted Aldorn to be usable without the Visages. He's best with them, but you can play him without them just fine.

I don't think there's any point to designing to that. If Master Aldorn has Summon Visages, then people won't take him without them. Even if he's good at 90pts, there are lots of other things that are good at 90pts to draft that aren't missing a power.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I don't think there's any point to designing to that. If Master Aldorn has Summon Visages, then people won't take him without them. Even if he's good at 90pts, there are lots of other things that are good at 90pts to draft that aren't missing a power.

Iskra, who is an obvious comparison here, plays just fine without the Retchets, especially in C3V with the Skeletons of Annellintia. There are lots of units that are better for 50 points, especially if you don't have the Retchets, or Skeletons. Aldorn is very similar here. He is best with the Visages, and a solid option with the Specters, but he doesn't need both, and (as with all heros designed for their synergy) he's probably not worth taking without at least 1 of them.