The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Leo Ultra]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I'd have to nix the power of Aura of Terror, subtracting all attack dice from figures is just too powerful, and on a 90 point figure... That is pretty close to a Raelin type aura. I'd suggest you look for something else for that second power.

Correction: It's minus one Attack, not minus infinite. I just fought against Astro's Masha Shingai in a playtest game, and he honestly presented more of an issue to Astro than to me. Also, I believe there are only 4 ranged squads in the game that are going to be effected by that aura under normal circumstances: Greyspears, Granite Guardians, Obsidian Guards, and the Teeth of the Makwa. Otherwise it's rather easy to avoid.

Oh, and he took her with Raelin. It didn't help much.



+2 defense X 0.33% = 0.66% -1 Attack X 0.5% = 0.5%
0.5% < 0.66%
The numbers may be close, but Mashy is a detriment to all of your figures, especially the ones guarding him, while Raelin helps all of your figures.
Raelin is A+ or S, I think. I'd rate Masha a mid to low B, since that aura affects your own figures. If he only affected enemy figures, he would likely be low to mid A, but that is not the case.

On the topic of second ability, he only killed two of my ranged squad figures as he died to 4 successful attacks.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Leo Ultra

The numbers may be close, but Mashy is a detriment to all of your figures, especially the ones guarding him, while Raelin helps all of your figures.

This is key. The attack penalty is not free--it often comes at a cost to your own armies. If you rush him out ahead to try and avoid this effect, then he'll likely last only a little bit longer than Mimring would've while dealing much less damage. The Raelin comparison doesn't hold up in practice.

Also, if he gets a nickname, it's going to be Tea Shrine, not Mashy.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I'd suggest you look for something else for that second power.

What bothers you about the second power?

[Kinseth]

Second power was referring to the Aura.

And youd just pair him with Fearless figures...

[Lazy Orang]

Yeah, I mostly like him, but I'm feeling Dwarves would be a better pairing than Samurai right now thanks to Fearless immunities.

[Son of Arathorn]

Have you considered making the Aura of Terror only affect Common figures? Yeah, it makes the Samurai Unique Squads better, but it also gives your opponent more holes in the de-buff to exploit, and still de-buffs the Tagawa Samurai Archers. While it wouldn’t follow Mask of Terror, it would emulate Terrifying Presence. Just a thought.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Have you considered making the Aura of Terror only affect Common figures? Yeah, it makes the Samurai Unique Squads better, but it also gives your opponent more holes in the de-buff to exploit, and still de-buffs the Tagawa Samurai Archers. While it wouldn’t follow Mask of Terror, it would emulate Terrifying Presence. Just a thought.

I think this is a great suggestion. This allows you to play him with most of the great samurai squads.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Second power was referring to the Aura.

And youd just pair him with Fearless figures...

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Yeah, I mostly like him, but I'm feeling Dwarves would be a better pairing than Samurai right now thanks to Fearless immunities.

I do have Axegrinders on my list of armies to playtest, but I can see the concern there. I kind of like how he can be used outside of Samurai builds, but given how good Axegrinders already are, I see the concern on how they might become the only build he's regularly used in.

The problem that I have with changing Aura of Terror to also affect Fearless figures is that it feels unthematic, both in terms of the mechanics and the tie to Akumaken. I'd be perfectly fine with dropping that immunity otherwise.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Have you considered making the Aura of Terror only affect Common figures? Yeah, it makes the Samurai Unique Squads better, but it also gives your opponent more holes in the de-buff to exploit, and still de-buffs the Tagawa Samurai Archers. While it wouldn’t follow Mask of Terror, it would emulate Terrifying Presence. Just a thought.

I've been considering making it only affect Squad figures more so than just affecting Commons, since I'm a little concerned that the Unique Squads would be too strong against melee armies otherwise. Granted, the Samurai are supposed to be the counter to melee much like the Repulsors are to SoulBorgs, but I don't believe that SoV would approve of something that makes the Samurai's best match-up much better.

[Son of Arathorn]

Maybe- but you might be surprised. Improving on a unit’s best feature or matchup is a long, glorious ‘Scape tradition.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Maybe- but you might be surprised. Improving on a unit’s best feature or matchup is a long, glorious ‘Scape tradition.

That's true, although I believe that VC as a whole has tended to shy away from that approach. The three Unique Samurai squads and Tomoe may be weak enough as an army to not be broken if exempt from Masha's Aura of Terror, but I'm still concerned that it could make a significant portion of units have major headaches against him without enough drawbacks.

I'd love to hear if I'm mistaken, though. Changing the immunity for Aura of Terror to only skip over Unique figures instead of Fearless ones would definitely stop the Dwarves from being his best friends. I just don't want my personal bias for the Samurai to lead me astray.

[Kinseth]

Aura of Terror was basically the same power that Gothlok originally had, during design it was determined that the aura was too powerful due to the affect it can have on low attack dice melee armies.(And this thought was championed by a current Judge in SOV) I don't see this thought changing with the iteration that you have here. It is one thing for a figure to have this power in a very limited fashion(Akumaken, Skull Demon), it is another to make it an aura that affects just about every figure in heroscape.

I know the arugment will be, "But it affects your own figures also(Except not those who are fearless)" It is much easier for you to design your army with the idea in mind that they likely will have -1 attack dice. Dreadgul Raiders etc... Than it is for your opponents who have to sit across from you and basically drawing dead(Poker term). The counterstriking Samurai will greatly benefit from enemies having one less attack dice if you choose to build an army with them.

And we haven't even started talking about the second power in how it addresses ranged attacks. Samurai don't need a boost from ranged attacks, the auto wound return hit to range on 8+ is very strong.

This guy is only 90 also & has an attack of 5? I think you should do some extensive playtesting. While granted, I haven't played a game with him, Based on what I have seen, this figure feels very under priced for what you are trying to accomplish.

I love the actual miniature, I would encourage you to bring this guy back to the drawing board. If you like those elements you have, change the scope in how those powers interact(something closer to Skull Demon/Akumaken), and the Burning Spite to just be a power that defends the Demon only. To design a figure that has a power that defends against melee and against range feels like you are trying to do too much.

[Scytale]

Sorry, but I'm also a no-go on Masha Shingai. I like the idea, but there are serious problems with the fear implementation.

Imagine, for a moment, Tagawa Archers backed by Masha and Raelin. If you're playing against it with a a melee army, you may as well give up. Even if you do manage to do some damage, Burning Spite will probably get you anyway. Who cares if your own figures do less damage; you're not trying to win via attacking, and Masha can kill whatever he goes after anyway. Add in Hatamoto Taro for even more defensive brutality.

I would not allow Burning Spite in its current form either. Triggered effects that work on special attacks are exceedingly troublesome. Special attacks, by definition, break the rules of the game. Breaking the rules for something that already breaks the rules causes lots of havoc. I could probably find some problematic examples if I went through the list (Lolth's Wrath comes to mind).

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Aura of Terror was basically the same power that Gothlok originally had, during design it was determined that the aura was too powerful due to the affect it can have on low attack dice melee armies.(And this thought was championed by a current Judge in SOV) I don't see this thought changing with the iteration that you have here. It is one thing for a figure to have this power in a very limited fashion(Akumaken, Skull Demon), it is another to make it an aura that affects just about every figure in heroscape.

I know the arugment will be, "But it affects your own figures also(Except not those who are fearless)" It is much easier for you to design your army with the idea in mind that they likely will have -1 attack dice. Dreadgul Raiders etc... Than it is for your opponents who have to sit across from you and basically drawing dead(Poker term). The counterstriking Samurai will greatly benefit from enemies having one less attack dice if you choose to build an army with them.

Thanks for the insight on Gothlok, I wasn't aware that he was originally similar. The only Fearless squad that I'm aware of are the Axegrinders, but they are admittedly already strong enough that it could be a problem. Would you feel the same way if Aura of Terror did only affect either Squads or Commons?

Originally Posted by Kinseth

And we haven't even started talking about the second power in how it addresses ranged attacks. Samurai don't need a boost from ranged attacks, the auto wound return hit to range on 8+ is very strong.

This guy is only 90 also & has an attack of 5? I think you should do some extensive playtesting. While granted, I haven't played a game with him, Based on what I have seen, this figure feels very under priced for what you are trying to accomplish.

It helps that he's supposed to work with the Samurai, since Tagawa Samurai Archers and the Unique Squads don't really function too well as complete armies. While his potential is nowhere near this extent and the Samurai aren't any knights, don't you feel that Sir Gilbert can do a lot more than his 105 points? Masha is significantly weaker than Gilbert, but 90 has been pretty close to the mark (if not slightly overpriced) in my games.

Burning Spite can be played around quite effectively thanks to the fact that it only works on adjacent figures. If you absolutely need to attack from range (thanks to the opponent taking Raelin + Masha and being able to form a screen around both figures and keep Raelin out of range), then it is just as easy to attack Masha Shingai instead. Even with a low 3 attack, he won't last very long, especially if he whiffs on defense and takes multiple wounds at once.

If the player plays poorly, then Masha Shingai will be left undefended, at which point he can be easily engaged and taken down without trouble. If the player is smart and manages to block him off from opposing melee, he probably won't be able to take advantage of his 5 attack. Masha definitely has a lot of power, but everything that he does comes with a cost beyond his points.

Here are a couple of the playtests that I have done so far. I haven't finished posting them all, but what's already up might help with seeing just how much he can cost the player who uses him.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I love the actual miniature, I would encourage you to bring this guy back to the drawing board. If you like those elements you have, change the scope in how those powers interact(something closer to Skull Demon/Akumaken), and the Burning Spite to just be a power that defends the Demon only. To design a figure that has a power that defends against melee and against range feels like you are trying to do too much.

At this point, I am more inclined to nerf Aura of Terror (either in size or in the figures affected) and drop his points than I am to extensively redesign the figure. Burning Spite feels surprisingly fun in practice, giving both players something new to try and play around in Samurai builds and doesn't feel like it's too powerful. His stats also separate him from the other Samurai heroes like Tomoe Gozen and Kaemon Awa, giving him his own feeling.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Sorry, but I'm also a no-go on Masha Shingai. I like the idea, but there are serious problems with the fear implementation.

Imagine, for a moment, Tagawa Archers backed by Masha and Raelin. If you're playing against it with a a melee army, you may as well give up. Even if you do manage to do some damage, Burning Spite will probably get you anyway. Who cares if your own figures do less damage; you're not trying to win via attacking, and Masha can kill whatever he goes after anyway. Add in Hatamoto Taro for even more defensive brutality.

As a quick correction, Burning Spite only works on ranged attacks. Against a completely melee army, it will never activate. I didn't like the idea of killing someone right after they broke through Counterstrike.

I will add more melee-only armies to my playtesting list to ensure that this is balanced. I think that Blade Gruts, Fyorlag Spiders, and other low-attack melee armies won't have a great time against the Samurai in any case, though, because the Samurai are the counter to them. Much like the Omnicron Repulsors against a SoulBorg army, the Samurai are designed to specifically give melee trouble.

This was one of my major concerns with the design, though, in that it can make the Samurai better against melee. I don't think that it's so bad as to be hopeless for a melee player, but I'm generally more concerned about what feels fun for both parties to be honest.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I would not allow Burning Spite in its current form either. Triggered effects that work on special attacks are exceedingly troublesome. Special attacks, by definition, break the rules of the game. Breaking the rules for something that already breaks the rules causes lots of havoc. I could probably find some problematic examples if I went through the list (Lolth's Wrath comes to mind).

I took the wording directly from the Mohican River Tribe (I was actually surprised to see that it does work on Special Attacks). Since the ability specifies being targeted, it solves a great many of those conditions (things like Mimring's Fire Line don't target any figures, the Explosion SAs only target the main figure, Ice Shards targets each figure, etc.), but Lolth's Wrath is definitely the most problematic SA. The Book of Pelloth has the answer on how Lolth's Wrath interacts with Isamu, Venom, and other units with defensive powers that work against Special Attacks:

Originally Posted by Book of Pelloth

Q. Lolth's Wrath : "Target"?
Who is the target of Lolth's Wrath Special Attack? May Pelloth use Lolth's Wrath while engaged?
A. There is no targeting involved. There is a chosen figure and affected figures. Because this uses attack dice we had to make it a special attack. While Pelloth is engaged, he can only use Wrath against the guy he's engaged with. Once Pelloth is no longer engaged, he can apply additional skulls to other figures. (-Grungebob, Rules Team)

If it is still a problem, then I will rewrite the ability to only work against normal ranged attacks, but this is following perfectly in the precedent of other figures from classic HeroScape, so it seems to have already addressed the problematic cases. Normally I would agree that it's best to exclude Special Attacks from powers such as these, but I don't see why it should be discouraged in this case (at least from a rules perspective).