The Book of E. Honda

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I doubt any design will ever compare to Angel and Spider-Girl in that point range.

Yeah, that's the thing, right? At a certain point, when you have 500+ units, I wonder if it isn't appropriate to shift drafting expectations a bit to figure that it's OK if some units are drafted for thematic purposes rather than competitive purposes, so long as they're appropriately costed so as not to be a competitive disadvantage at that cost (and if he is, just lower his cost!).

As long as he hits his marks on theme and can be useful in armies at his point range, I'm not sure it's a terrible thing if he's overshadowed by some preexisting units. With this many units, some are simply going to overshadow others. And making too many changes to a unit to try to combat that can lead to the new units always overshadowing the old ones instead of vice versa.

All that said, if there are some small tweaks that make you more interested in playing the figure or if he just fails the "fun" test for you as currently constructed, go for any changes needed. But at this point I don't think it's possible to keep all figures super draftable from a purely competitive standpoint.

[SirGalahad]

If it were after moving, then this:

Originally Posted by SirGalahad

SUMO HEADBUTT
After moving, if E. Honda is unengaged, instead of attacking normally, you may choose a non-adjacent figure within 3 spaces of E. Honda whose base is no more than 5 levels higher than his height or 5 levels lower than his base. Place E. Honda adjacent to the chosen figure and roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each level E. Honda moved down this turn with this special power. If you roll 18 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds.

If he's still underwhelming, we can always bump up he SA to 4 dice.

[japes]

Originally Posted by iambatman

yeah, that's the thing, right? At a certain point, when you have 500+ units, i wonder if it isn't appropriate to shift drafting expectations a bit to figure that it's ok if some units are drafted for thematic purposes rather than competitive purposes, so long as they're appropriately costed so as not to be a competitive disadvantage at that cost (and if he is, just lower his cost!).

As long as he hits his marks on theme and can be useful in armies at his point range, i'm not sure it's a terrible thing if he's overshadowed by some preexisting units. With this many units, some are simply going to overshadow others. And making too many changes to a unit to try to combat that can lead to the new units always overshadowing the old ones instead of vice versa.

bullseye!!

[Dysole]

He's not amazing but not underwhelming. I can think of some uses for him.

That special is kind of meh. I think it could be attack 4 and be fine.

~Dysole, always liking new ways to move people around

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Yeah, that's the thing, right? At a certain point, when you have 500+ units, I wonder if it isn't appropriate to shift drafting expectations a bit to figure that it's OK if some units are drafted for thematic purposes rather than competitive purposes, so long as they're appropriately costed so as not to be a competitive disadvantage at that cost (and if he is, just lower his cost!).

As long as he hits his marks on theme and can be useful in armies at his point range, I'm not sure it's a terrible thing if he's overshadowed by some preexisting units. With this many units, some are simply going to overshadow others. And making too many changes to a unit to try to combat that can lead to the new units always overshadowing the old ones instead of vice versa.

All that said, if there are some small tweaks that make you more interested in playing the figure or if he just fails the "fun" test for you as currently constructed, go for any changes needed. But at this point I don't think it's possible to keep all figures super draftable from a purely competitive standpoint.

There's a difference between making a unit that is the best draft at their cost range, and making a unit that's just draftable. We're obviously never going to design a unit that overshadows Angel or Spider-Girl, because that would be broken. But what we can do is make sure each unit we design is worth playing (without just falling back on the Ms. Marvel/Star-Lord/Cap crutch) and that they bring something fun, interesting, or different to the game (and not necessarily all three at once). Plenty of my favorite units in the game aren't ranked very high competitively, but I'm always happy I include them because they add something special or fun to the game, and at the same time will generally live up to their cost.

But back on topic, I actually feel E. Honda fulfills the above by adding a new and fun looking power to the game, I'm just concerned that same power is kind of weak right now. SirG's most recent version of the power looks perfect to me though.

[johnny139]

I think that both of his powers have uses as-is and his stats are manageable. We can tweak his cost or his dice if he's underperforming - I don't think we're set in stone with any of the numbers here as long as they're believable for the character.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by SirGalahad

SUMO HEADBUTT
After moving, if E. Honda is unengaged, instead of attacking normally, you may choose a non-adjacent figure within 3 spaces of E. Honda whose base is no more than 5 levels higher than his height or 5 levels lower than his base. Place E. Honda adjacent to the chosen figure and roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each level E. Honda moved down this turn with this special power. If you roll 18 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds.

I like that! That change would make it easier to get him into the battle and give him a shot at a nice early hit.

[SirGalahad]

If no other objections, I'll move it to the SP tomorrow.

[SirGalahad]

SP updated with

SUMO HEADBUTT
After moving, if E. Honda is unengaged, instead of attacking normally, you may choose a non-adjacent figure within 3 spaces of E. Honda whose base is no more than 5 levels higher than his height or 5 levels lower than his base. Place E. Honda up to 2 spaces from where his movement ended and adjacent to the chosen figure. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to the roll for each level E. Honda moved down this turn with this special power. If you roll 18 or higher, the chosen figure receives 2 wounds.

[Yodaking]

Just looking at this for the first time and the first thing that jumps out at me is a desire to see the SA raised up to 4. I see others have posted similar thoughts too.

[SirGalahad]

Other SA's with Range 1. Attack 4.

Conan (200) - Barrage of Blades (movement + 4 total attacks)
Shi (170) - Naginatajutsu (3 total attacks)
Thunderball (190) - Ball and Chain Slam (AoE and figure movement)
Zangief (150) - Double Lariat (2 total attacks)

I'm not opposed, but he would definitely need a price bump if we added the SA die.

[TrollBrute]

I ran some Hero and Squad tests with his SA at 3. It didn't feel particularly strong, but it has plenty of uses. He felt right in the 120-140 range during those tests, unless we make changes, I'll run some army tests soon with him at 130.