The Book of Ares

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Are you sure he shouldn't have Olympian Fortitude? That's really my only question here.

I don't know if we want to draw a distinction or not, but both Hercules and Pluto are Marvel Olympians, where this is the DC Ares.

[Ronin]

Event Hero status gives him slightly-worse Olympian Fortitude anyway.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Event Hero status gives him slightly-worse Olympian Fortitude anyway.

This is true. It's the difference of 2 wounds. Not really worth taking up more room on the card or dropping anything else in its favor, IMO. The card represents the character as-is, and is unique in the way it plays, so I'm more than satisfied with it going forward into testing.

[Dysole]

COMPETITIVE REVIEW BOARD CHECKLIST

Competitive Concerns
Does the design offer worrisome Order marker movement or efficiency? God of War provides you a watered down Oracle power. Not too concerning.

Does the design offer superior Auto wounding? No.

Does the design cause the prevention of abilities (Blob, Polaris, Meteorite)? Stops disengage and does create a Blobesque situation (although you aren't always forced onto low ground). Also means that you will often be forced to make attacks you don't want to. 6 spaces is kind of a lot. That means he can affect up to 117 spaces around him. That's...large.

Does the design move other figures? No.

Does the design boost other figures (outside of a narrowly defined set)? Yes. Granted it's not easy to get the +1 boost, but -1 defense in some cases is at least as good.

Does the design have one or more excellent defensive powers? Healing with God of War.

Does the design auto destroy or take control of other figures in a way that unbalances the design? No.

Does the design have any other concerns? Beefy stats + healing equals a pain to kill. Huge range on that aura.

Summary of Any Competitive Concerns/Suggestions for Changes:
I'd be tempted to gum up the board with civilians or something and then use people like Deadshot, Merlyn, and Cable to rain down fire on the people's who are stuck in engagements. Not sure it's a viable strategy, but I could see it being annoying to play against. (Unrevealed figure could be more annoying than civilians depending on where that ends up.)

I may think of other ways to abuse this, but for right now, that's all I've got.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Dysole

COMPETITIVE REVIEW BOARD CHECKLIST

Solid thoughts. I'd say the +1 attack -1 defense boost affecting figures on both sides of the field makes it a bit different. Everyone on the field is getting the +1 attack and -1 defense, so it helps/hurts you and your opponent all the same, thus cancels it out.

Yeah, the Aura is quite large when you look at it in that way. I could see it going down to . I wouldn't want to nerf it too much, as it should feel effective, but I'd ultimately be fine with 4 spaces. Actually, that makes more sense as his Range is 4, so it helps the player remember the Aura/Range easier.

1 wound healed per figure destroyed shouldn't be too much in terms of keeping him alive. Especially as his defense drops per War Marker, he'll be down to 4 at max. Even with 9 life, when you're rolling 4 defense he could be taken out in a round if the kills aren't coming.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm mainly just trying to refine things before going into Initials, so that way it's less time wasted on repeat testing just to find those problematic areas. I'd rather nip them in the bud right away. So I'll make that change now.

[Arkham]

I figure'd I'd run a test with this version, ahead of any vote for Initials, to give an idea how it performs in practice.

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Ares(550), Oracle(110), Beast Boy(Cheetah)(20), Bob Agent of Hydra(25), Liz Sherman(180), Skrull Infiltrator(10) Civilians x 2(90), Bodyguard(15)
(1,000)
vs.
Fantastic Four(1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T1: 5 wounds on Invisible Woman, kills her. (+2 attack, Oracle X, -1 defense)
R3T2: 2 wounds on Mr. Fantastic. (+3 attack, -1 defense)

God of War:
R1T1: gains 2 War Markers from Liz's Firestorm SA destroying 2 teammates.
R2T1: gains 1 War Marker from killing Invisible Woman.

Notes:
R1T1: Liz uses Firestorm SA on her own teammates Bob and Beast Boy Cheetah, kills both of them. Liz then takes 3 wounds from unblockables.
R1T1: Mr. F. rolls a 13. IW, HT, and Mr. F. move.
R1T2: Civilians move. (don't roll 5 or lower)
R1T2: Mr. F. rolls a 9. HT and Mr. F. both kill a Civilian.
R1T3: 2nd group of Civilians move. (don't roll 5 or lower)
R1T3: Mr. F. rolls a 12. HT kills a Civilian with Fo4, then moves and uses Supernova. Kills 4 Civilians and Skrull Infiltrator. Mr. F. kills last Civilian.
R2T1: Mr. F. rolls a 19. HT puts 3 wounds on Ares(+1 attack, -3 to Ares' defense).
R2T2: Mr. F. rolls a 15. HT puts 3 wounds on Ares(+1 attack, -3 to Ares' defense, botched defense). Thing kills Ares(+3 attack, -3 to Ares' defense).
R2T3: Mr. F. rolls an 8. Mr. F. kills Oracle(botched defense).
R3T1: Mr. F. rolls a 15. HT kills Bodyguard.
R3T2: Thing kills Liz.


Mr. Fantastic with 2 wounds, Thing and Human Torch with 0 wounds.

Ares' team started off by having Liz kamikaze and take out Beast Boy Cheetah and Bob, Agent of Hydra. This gained him an instant 2 War Markers. They then led with Civilians moving out, luckily not rolling 5 or lower, thus keeping the War Markers. The Fantastic Four moved out, and Human Torch instantly found an opportunity to take out 5 Civilians with his Supernova, to stop the incoming lockdown play. The Fantastic Four then swept up the rest of the Civilians and fodder with ease. Ares couldn't wait any longer, things clearly not going his way at this point, and engaged Invisible Woman and destroyed her in a single attack. However, the Fantastic Four then locked him down and took him out in 2 Order Markers, from boosted attacks from Thing, Human Torch, and Mr. Fantastic himself. Ares' defense being 4, opened him up to several attacks dealing 3 wounds each, and he couldn't keep up, easily being killed off. The Fantastic Four then mopped up the remaining figures with ease.

Definitely a matchup that likely favors the Fantastic Four with their multiple turns and possible multiple attacks. Mr. Fantastic locking down Ares also stunts his potential. So overall, I'm sure he can perform better than this, but I tried packing his team with the cheapest Unique Heroes and Squads to really make use of the kamikaze method we've discussed. It was quite fun blasting your own units for markers, I actually enjoyed that. However, his staying power just isn't there once the heat is on him and he was actually ousted rather quickly with only 4 defense and boosting those who are attacking him with a +1 attack.

[johnny139]

While I understand the mechanical value of the current ordering for War Marker bonuses, I think the original progression makes more sense.

+1 Attack (I'm violent and angry, making me a stronger fighter.)
-1 Defense (I'm more violent and angry, making me lose focus on my own safety.)
Cannot Leave Engagements (I'm incredibly violent and angry, making me so focused on hurting others that I can't stop fighting.)
Must Attack (I'm so unbearably violent and angry that I can't resist hurting others.)

The current lineup is, again, probably a better value proposition for the player, but I really liked the visceral reaction I had to the original version. Very bloody. Very Ares.

I would name the second power "COMBAT'S EBB" or something like that.

Overall I think the direction is cool, and warrants Event Hero status, which is something that's important.

[Arkham]

Yeah I'm fine with the ordering either way. I agree though that it makes more logical sense in terms of natural progression, I believe that's why I originally ordered it as such. You want to harm your opponent more, you stop focusing on defense, you can't walk away from the fight, you seek fights with anyone and everyone near you, including your own allies.

[Arkham]

I will say there seems to be an issue with the design as is. If you look at that test result, which is the same result I had when I tested the design that's in the SP, Ares' team got steam rolled and Ares himself was taken out quickly. So I'm not sure how to combat that, but I feel something about the design on paper has people thinking he's a big bad dude, but in practice he's not so tough. Perhaps the -1 defense per War Marker is too much for him to keep up with, and it's best to put him at a static 6 defense or something.

Of course, we'll need to see him go up against those that can't do so many attacks per Order Marker, as the FF are probably a natural counter to his strengths all things considered.

With that said, I'm thinking of changing the ordering back to what it was originally. Not only does it make more sense, it's actually helping delay the early lockdown strategy with Squads.

[Dysole]

I'm suggesting pairing him up with people who will really enjoy his other bonuses and fire from range and then give lots of stuff to gum up the works and use Ares as a support figure away from the front lines and see what that produces.

~Dysole, who knows her brief interaction with dok indicated that he echoed some of her concerns

[Arkham]

Alright, I took your strategy and tried it out. This Ares was the one with an Aura of 4, 3 markers, and the order of +1 attack, -1 defense, then lockdown/forced attack.

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Ares(550), Merlyn(160), Green Arrow(150), Civilians x 2(90), Beast Boy Cheetah(20), Bob Agent of Hydra(25)
(995)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Spider-Man(250), Wolverine(280), Firestar(120), Swordsman(160) (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R4T1: 3 wounds on Wolverine. (+2 attack, -1 defense, height)
R4T2: 4 wounds on Wolverine, kills him. (+3 attack, -1 defense, height)
R5T1: 5 wounds on Firestar, kills her. (+3 attack, -1 defense, height)

God of War:
R2T2: 1 War Marker.
R4T1: 1 War Marker.
R4T2: 1 War Marker.

Notes:
R1T3: Firestar kills a Civilian.
R2T1: BB Cheetah puts 1 wound on Luke.
R2T2: Firestar kills 4 Civilians. Cage kills BB Cheetah.
R2T3: Spider-Man kills a Civilian.
R3T2: Merlyn kills Swordsman. (+1 attack)
R3T2: Cage kills a Civilian.
R3T3: Cage puts 2 wounds on Merlyn.
R4T1: Spider-Man kills Merlyn.
R4T2: S-M puts 2 wounds on Ares. Cage kills Green-Arrow.
R4T3: S-M puts 2 wounds on Ares. Cage kills last Civilian.
R5T1: S-M puts 5 wounds on Ares(botched defense). (-3 defense, -2 defense from Web Slinger). Cage kills Ares.
R5T3: S-M kills Bob.


Luke Cage with 1 wound, Spider-Man with 0 wounds.

A closer matchup this time around. The Civilians played their part moving a ton, but still were easily disposed of thanks to Firestar and the double turns. Green Arrow and Merlyn were also taken down with ease. Ares however, went on a tear this time. With full markers, he managed to sling some big attacks, killing Wolverine and Firestar. Not exactly 550 points worth, but still something. Unfortunately for Ares, Spider-Man and Luke Cage had his number with his defense being 4, and their attacks being boosted by 1. Ares' healing definitely helped when he was able to profit off of the deaths, but the big attacks on him were too much to handle.

Ultimately, it was a better showing, but still not up to his point value, nor did anything that sparked concern happen. I do like the Civilian team up with Ares. Very thematic for him to have Civilians on the fritz going nuts, engaging heroes and attacking them. It certainly feels like Ares when you play him, except for one aspect. He feels like paper once his markers are on. It may be worth considering ditching the defense reduction per war marker aspect as it's what's lowering his value considerably, and may not be entirely thematic for him to become as vulnerable as Catwoman when he's supposed to be getting stronger with each character death.

It's such a unique dynamic playing him. Everything is for him. Throwing your own figures to their death and using them merely as a means for violence and bloodshed to aid Ares is certainly fun.

[TrollBrute]

Sorry I'm late to the party here, had a really busy weekend. I'm liking the general direction here.

Is the healing aspect really need though? I know he's not showing strong right now, but I don't think that part is needed and it adds to an already stuffed power. Plus, healing on a figure with high Life and decent defense gets super annoying.

Also, for Combat's Ebb, I think you want wording more like "if no figure received one or more wounds." Right now, it'll trigger almost every turn by a literal reading as almost every turn has at least one figure that doesn't receive a wound.