The Book of Shurrak

[SPECTER]

Last night's 800 point game MVP Play:

Cyprien sails his full move and lands with height advantage over my Shurrak (standing idly two spaces from a molten lava pit.) Chilling touch and the attack both fail.

Shurrak is up next. He rotates around to get a different view and to get on the same level with the vampire. His attack failed but I rolled a 19 for Knockback. First time I ever managed to knock someone into the lava. It was hilarious.

[kolakoski]

Well met!!

That's what you get Shurrak for! Upon my return from Jamaica, I intend to use my new Sky Mat to good effect to encourage the appearance of the aforementioned Shurrak, Jotun, as well as Mindflayers, Kee-Mo-Shi, Werewolf Lord, and Ne-Gok-Sa - anything that can direct an enemy unit to step into space.

[dok]

We were having some discussions about knockback's interactions with a few powers and realized it's not completely clear. The first two here seem somewhat clear-cut, but the latter two get really weird.

• Which happens first, Scatter or Knockback? I suspect it is Knockback because of the "immediately". Scatter just says "After a Deathreaver you control rolls defense dice...", as opposed to Knockback's "rolls defense dice and is not destroyed ", but given that in practice we remove casualties before scattering, it seems clear-cut to me.
  
  
• What happens first, Knockback or Teleport Reinforcements? Do you move TBR with knockback and then teleport reinforcements, or do you teleport reinforcements and then move TBR? Again, it seems like it's Knockback, then teleport, because of the "immediately".
  
  
• What happens first, Knockback or Cell Divide? This is trickier than Teleport Reinforcements because the Divider survives because Cell Divide is successful. Does Knockback interrupt the Cell Divide power, knocking back the figure after it makes the divide roll but before it actually divides??
  
  
• What happens first, Counter Strike or Knockback? If Knockback comes first, if a Samurai is knocked back, can he still Counter Strike if he is no longer adjacent? If Counter Strike comes first, then do you still roll for Knockback if Shurrak is killed by a Counter Strike?

[DanieLoche]

Knockback should be a special attack to solve these problems...

I think that both powers apply at the same time if there is no way to dissiciate a sequence of application...

[Fencerjared]

Originally Posted by dok

We were having some discussions about knockback's interactions with a few powers and realized it's not completely clear. The first two here seem somewhat clear-cut, but the latter two get really weird.

• Which happens first, Scatter or Knockback? I suspect it is Knockback because of the "immediately". Scatter just says "After a Deathreaver you control rolls defense dice...", as opposed to Knockback's "rolls defense dice and is not destroyed ", but given that in practice we remove casualties before scattering, it seems clear-cut to me.
  
  
• What happens first, Knockback or Teleport Reinforcements? Do you move TBR with knockback and then teleport reinforcements, or do you teleport reinforcements and then move TBR? Again, it seems like it's Knockback, then teleport, because of the "immediately".
  
  
• What happens first, Knockback or Cell Divide? This is trickier than Teleport Reinforcements because the Divider survives because Cell Divide is successful. Does Knockback interrupt the Cell Divide power, knocking back the figure after it makes the divide roll but before it actually divides??
  
  
• What happens first, Counter Strike or Knockback? If Knockback comes first, if a Samurai is knocked back, can he still Counter Strike if he is no longer adjacent? If Counter Strike comes first, then do you still roll for Knockback if Shurrak is killed by a Counter Strike?

I agree with your interpretation of the first two cases, for the same reason: because of the term "immediately."

I think Knockback is checked for before Cell Divide occurs, and so wouldn't actually happen. Because the Divider would have been destroyed on the basis of the attack/defense dice, Knockback doesn't activate, and then you roll for Cell Divide. This is unfortunately complex, and kind of uses the idea of phases of an order marker that I believe has been debunked by the old Rules Team, but I think it's the most accurate.

Counterstrike is, I think, much simpler: Because the attack originally happened while adjacent, Counterstrike is still activated by rolling excess shields. I think Counterstrike is resolved as part of the dice-counting "phase," not afterwards.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Fencerjared

I think Knockback is checked for before Cell Divide occurs, and so wouldn't actually happen. Because the Divider would have been destroyed on the basis of the attack/defense dice, Knockback doesn't activate, and then you roll for Cell Divide. This is unfortunately complex, and kind of uses the idea of phases of an order marker that I believe has been debunked by the old Rules Team, but I think it's the most accurate.

If that's true, then Stealth Armor, Sacred Band Defy Death, and Exoskeleton would also trigger after Knockback occurs (or rather, fails to occur). I don't think this interpretation is correct, as Knockback has the restriction "is not destroyed." It makes sense that this would only be checked after the point that a figure is actually destroyed, in other words removed from the board.

Originally Posted by Fencerjared

Counterstrike is, I think, much simpler: Because the attack originally happened while adjacent, Counterstrike is still activated by rolling excess shields. I think Counterstrike is resolved as part of the dice-counting "phase," not afterwards.

If that's true, and if Shurrak is killed by a Counter Strike, can that figure still be affected by Knockback? If Shurrak is destroyed, his powers are no longer in effect.

[Fencerjared]

Originally Posted by Scytale

If that's true, then Stealth Armor, Sacred Band Defy Death, and Exoskeleton would also trigger after Knockback occurs (or rather, fails to occur). I don't think this interpretation is correct, as Knockback has the restriction "is not destroyed." It makes sense that this would only be checked after the point that a figure is actually destroyed, in other words removed from the board.

The way I see it, wound ignoring powers are triggered by the destruction of a figure. That's exactly why I don't think Knockback would trigger; you check for Knockback "immediately" after you would determine destruction of the figure based on the defense dice rolls, and then any of those wound ignoring powers would activate. Like I said though, does make things more complicated. As Dok stated, the situations get weird.

Originally Posted by Scytale

If that's true, and if Shurrak is killed by a Counter Strike, can that figure still be affected by Knockback? If Shurrak is destroyed, his powers are no longer in effect.

I would say not. The way I think of it, Counterstrike happens while counting dice and applying hits, not after. If Shurrak is dead when destruction is checked for because of the results of the dice, Knockback shouldn't trigger.

[nate the dawg]

Man, that Cell Divide case is a poser. I don't think that Knockback would "interrupt" Cell Divide; I don't believe there's any precedent for a d20 power triggering and resolving in such a manner.

For Counterstrike, though, this makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Fencerjared

I would say not. The way I think of it, Counterstrike happens while counting dice and applying hits, not after. If Shurrak is dead when destruction is checked for because of the results of the dice, Knockback shouldn't trigger.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by nate the dawg

Man, that Cell Divide case is a poser. I don't think that Knockback would "interrupt" Cell Divide; I don't believe there's any precedent for a d20 power triggering and resolving in such a manner.

For Counterstrike, though, this makes sense to me.

If a power activates at the same time, and D20 roll is required to see which activates first.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

If a power activates at the same time, and D20 roll is required to see which activates first.

If these powers were at the same time, or rather specified to trigger at the same time, I would agree.

The consensus here seems to be that for the others powers that trigger "after defense dice are rolled" (like Scatter), Knockback happens first because of the word "immediately." That is being taken to be a keyword to mean it happens before other powers that trigger at the same time.

The timing is even less clear for powers like Stealth Armor and Cell Divide, which trigger when a figure receives wounds. Is there time between the rolling of defense dice and the assignment of wounds? If so, Knockback would trigger before those powers would prevent the wounds. That is, Knockback could not be used against a figure that is saved by Stealth Armor. I see the argument, but I'm willing to bet that is not how anyone plays it, or how it was envisioned when designed.

The Counter Strike question is whether or not the counter strike occurs before "when a figure rolls defense dice and is not destroyed." If so, Shurrak could be killed before Knockback is triggered. I tend to agree with this interpretation, but it's a very fine line we're drawing.

[yamissflash]

I would say toward the stealth armor that the figure is not fully destroyed because it is never removed from the battlefield and thus knock back would occur.

Toward the cell divide, I would think that cell divide would occur and then knockback, because the power (like stealth armor) prevents the full destruction of the figure. The marro would clone, then knockback would occur afterward.

For counterstrike, I think it would apply before knockback because it seems to happen in conjunction with the defense roll, it isn't a separate (but automatic) thing like knockback.

[Kroc]

When dok poses a question I'm a little hesitant to way in with an answer, since I usually wait for dok to answer my thorny questions, but here's my

My interpretation puts a lot of weight on the game designers knowing what they were saying when they wrote "is not destroyed" on the card. A Marro Divder is not destroyed until after his Cell Divide roll. Likewise a Microcorp Agent is not destroyed until after his stealth armor bonus kicks in.

So this is my interpretation.
1) Roll defense/attack dice for the attack. If Counterstrike occurs at this point then its impact must be taken into consideration. (Shurakk dies nothing else happens.)

2) If the figure receives one or more wounds and thus may be destroyed check all special defense bonuses to see if the figure "is not destroyed." Specifically if the figure cell divides then it does it then, if it has Stealth armor this is the point it kicks in. (This means that only the targeted figure, not the new figure, is knocked back because cell divide happens before the Knockback.)

EDIT: Notice this means that Vanish (Isamu) occurs before the Knockback, because while this is a movement power it determines whether Isamu "is not destroyed" or not. Obviously if he vanishes then he can't be knocked back. Or is that so obvious??? You got me here.

3) Because of the word "immediately" you then roll Knockback before any power that does not affect the "is not destroyed" statement.

So, as far as I can see, the only way to resolve the "immediately" and "is not destroyed" is first to check defense powers and then apply Knockback. Opinions?
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