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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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#25
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
Man if I went this year I think I would have ran Granite Guardians. They're one of my all time favorites. Hmm
Maybe...if i'm feeling ballsy: Raelin Warden 816 GGs x3 Marcu Probably would swap a squad for Syvarris (as opposed to Krav; wouldn't really want to face Krav+Raelin in the reverse rounds) if I want to win, but GGx3+Warden is so fun. GGx3+Nilfheim/Zelrig would be fun too. I like Sujoah a lot too, she unfortunately never sees much play. I'd consider running her too I think. Sujoah Q9 Spiders x3 I don't mind facing Q9 alone (without Raelin and/or rats) that much. I've gone up against a lot of opponents who don't really abuse him fully. ....maybe I'd sub a squad of spiders for rats x1.... Sujoah Zelrig Hydra That's a mean army. I think I'd go with that for a Sujoah army Can't wait to see all the other army builds outside of top 16 get posted. Maybe someone ran GGs Edit: Anubians are another that would be dope. I guess I really don't know what kind of army I would have went with lol |
#26
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GG Easy
The other army I was considering Cleon?
Raelin Heirloom Nakitas (although I was leaning towards stingers x2) Granites x2 I ended up going with Templar instead but I thought long and hard. ~Dysole, always bringing something goofy My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
#27
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
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2. Hendal (Nilfheim, Greenscales x2, Fen Hydra, Marcu, Isamu, Marro Nagrubs x1) 5-0 3. dok (Tor-Kul-Na, Nagrubs x4, Raelin, Otonashi, Sam Brown) 4-1 4. Evan (Marcus, 4th x2, Romans x2, Q10) 4-1 5. vegietarian18 (Tagawa Samurai Archers x2, Knights x1, Alastair, Syvarris, Raelin) 4-1 6. Mr Chompy (Gorillanators x4, Nakitas, Otonashi) 4-1 7. OrcElfArmyOne (Warriors of Ashra x2, Phantom Knights x2, Concan, Arkmer, Kyntela, Jorhdawn) 4-1 8. ISB3 (Cutters x3, Agent Carr, Dund, Alastair) 3-1-1 9. Major Q23 (Axegrinders x2, Darrak, Phantom Knights x1, Tarn Viking Warriors, Tandros Kreel) 3-2 10. Wookie (Stingers x5, Drake v2, Marcu) 3-2 11. Chris Perkins (Mezzos x2, Raelin, Knights x1, Thorgrim, Zetacron, Marro Warriors, Marcu) 3-2 12. Dysole (4th Mass x2, Templar x2, Raelin, Eldgrim) 3-2 13. Chill (Jorhdawn, Ulginesh, Raelin, Chardris, Arkmer, Kyntela) 3-2 14. Bradley (Zelrig, Greenscales x2, Nakitas, Sam Brown) 3-2 15. William099 (Warforged x4, Siege, Marro Warriors) 3-2 16. Rÿchean (Aubriens x4, Sonlen, Arkmer) 3-2 Of these, I think only a few would have made it to day 2 back in 2010. There's something slightly janky about nearly all of them, and that "150 point rule" seems to largely be in effect. It seems like practice and knowledge of the maps are how you take these things to day 2. I'm guessing there are still some strong armies out there that just didn't make it. |
#28
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
Forget 2010; most of them wouldn't have made it in 2011. Note how I basically played a nerfed version of my 2011 army (turning Krav into Sam Brown and more grubs). And yet, in 2011 I probably had one of the weakest couple armies that made it. This year I was... slightly above average for the top 16?
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#29
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
I blocked that year from my memory after Megasilver rolled my trons with his Venocs... Must have had 4-5 Frenzies on one OM and wiped out all of my Glads. That was the first reverse the whip year, right? Seems like going down to 16 spaces had the biggest effect on what people started bringing.
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#30
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
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Even at 24 hexes, Nathan and William still would have created the first Splash army and I still would have created the first Toolbox army. The 150/9 hexes rule is derived from those early 2015 armies, but those were not conceived with that in mind, if that makes sense. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#31
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
2013
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Championship Day 1 1. Deroche 5-0 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin, Otonashi)*** 2. tom 5-0 (6x 4th Mass) *** 3. Pickle4192 5-0 (6x 4th Mass)*** 4. Hendal 4-1 (6x Stingers, Raelin, Isamu)*** 5. pitboss648 4-1 (4x Heavy Gruts, Grimnak, Nerak)*** 6. cornpuff 4-1 (2x Axegrinders, Mogrimm, Raelin, Airborne Elite)* 6. Mattstertruckrally 4-1 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin)*** 8. EternalThanos86 4-1 (5x Deathchasers, Nerak, Kaemon Awa)** 9. nicktheant 4-1 (Braxas, 3x Phantom Knights, Marcu, Otonashi, Isamu)* 9. NecroBlade 4-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)* 11. jacob_jp 4-1 (3x Phantom Knights, Isamu, Raelin, Major Q10)* 12. orcelfarmyone 4-1 (3x Greenscales, Nilfheim, Raelin)* 13. infectedsloth 3-1-1 (Fen Hydra, 4x Phantom Knights, Marro Warriors)** 14. George, orcelfarmyone's dad 3-1-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)* 15. sixthflagbearer 3-2 (5x Dividers, Major Q9, Marcu)** 16. Rollitontop 3-2 (4x 4th Mass, Sgt. Drake SotM)** I looked these up out of curiosity. One star armies in 2012 were already under 16 figures, two stars meant that there were 17 so you could easily sit 1 figure, and 3 meant it was 18 or more. Only 6/16 were ***, which is the same as *. 6 out of the top 7 used many hexes, and I don't think any of them won it all. |
#32
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
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Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#33
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Re: GG Easy
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Something about the GGs I just love. Wish they were like 80/85pt though. 100pt is pricey. Same with the Quasatch. |
#34
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
Well, this to me is still the way that I find thinking about Main Event armies most productive. So here's my new archetypes for the 2018 armies:
Toolbox This isn't my concept and I haven't actually played with or against any of these armies in a Main Event match so I don't have any major opinions on them. Where Splash armies normally use Raelin to keep their already well-statted figures alive, Toolbox armies forego the defense boost and instead just add another tool to the army. They are certainly easier to punish mistakes with than Splash, where an opponent can mess up and still be fine since it's hard to punish someone who is sitting in Raelin's aura even if they are sitting in it badly. They are probably worse at going against cogent armies than Splash is though; it's kind of anti-Splash in a way. Major Q23 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2) Dwarves x2 Darrak Tandros Tarn Vikings Phantoms x1 Arkmer OrcElfArmyOne (made Day 2) Warriors of Ashra x2 Phantom Knights x2 Concan Arkmer Kyntela Jorhdawn Really good? I don't even know what to say about these and there's a few of them every year really. A few people manage to overachieve with them and get a bit farther than they would be expected to go, but I find it hard to see a build like this ever winning the Main Event. It seems silly not to acknowledge them though. Hendal 2018 (Made Day 2, 5-0 Day 1) Nilfheim Greenscales x2 Hydra Marcu Isamu Nagrubs x1 Wookie 2018 (Made Day 2, 3-2) Stingers x5 Drake (SotM) Marcu nicktheant 2018 (3-2, missed Day 2) Braxas Stingers x4 Flawed AND Whole It's hard keep coming up with names when the distinctions aren't really figures. In these builds, instead of patching over the weakness of bad figures and playing them in their best builds like Mediocre but Whole armies do, you just play the okay figures and fill your whole army with them and try to play around their weaknesses during the course of the games and hope your opponent is worse at that than you are. I think it's a pretty sound strategy, especially as the meta weakens and there's less of a need to have an army prepared to beat everything. dok 2015 (made Day 2, Top 4) TKN Nagrubs x3 Raelin MBS Marcu dok 2018 (made Day 2, Top 4) TKN Nagrubs x4 Raelin Sam Brown Otonashi Rÿchean 2018 Aubrien Archers x4 Sonlen Arkmer Of the other notable Main Event armies, I'd class them within my previous names as follows: Short But Good Matthias 2018 (won Main Event) Axegrinders x4 Darrak Marcu Hatamoto ISB3 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-1-1) Cutters x3 Dünd Agent Carr Alistair You could maybe argue a bit more on the second but I think Dund is so bad and Agent Carr is so overpriced that it's basically like playing short in the way ISB3 did in his 2016 Main Event win with Cutters an heroes. Not as short as Hatamato, but the Dwarves are better than Cutters so. Bread and Butter Evantage 2018 (made Main Event finals) 4th x2 Romans x2 MDG Q10 Dysole 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2) 4th x2 Templar Cavalry x2 Raelin Eldgrim Very successful run for Evantage using a double squad build without Raelin. His may even be considered something else than a double squad build since the exclusion of Raelin allowed for Q10 to be squeezed in as a SA. Maybe that's even a Toolbox army. Splash Before I was saying that I didn't think my army was Splash but I think the Splash builds are actually defined more specifically than low commons: it's Raelin + solid stats from a variety of squads and heroes that require order marker management. You want something that can clog the board and something that can do damage and then a utility piece. Both Chris Perkins and I probably overshot the meta with our builds: Chris just has a ton of solid figures and my build clicked together really nicely especially with Syvarris behind a Tagawa screen. Dragon Ruler's is less of an overshoot since none of its pieces can do anything crazy, but Kaemon Awa is really good, especially backed by Raelin. vegietarian18 2018 (made Day 2) Tagawa Samurai Archers x2 Knights x1 Alistair Syvarris Raelin Chris Perkins 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2) Mezzos x2 Knights x1 Thorgrim Raelin Zetacron Marro Warriors Marcu DragonRuler 2018 (3-2, missed Day 2) Sacred Band x2 MDG Raelin Kaemon Awa RedW x3 Mediocre but Whole Gorillas are far worse than mediocre so this is quite an impressive build to see make the second day. Mr Chompy 2018 (made Day 2) Gorillinators x4 Nakitas Otonashi I'll hopefully get this added to the OP eventually. The most notable thing I see from this is: -Splash and Toolbox armies didn't perform well on Day 2 -The more cogent army archetypes did 10 Years of Gencon/Scapecon Battle Reports - Comic Battle Reports - Probability Calculator App - Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes "It's all about the game." - Sgt. Ernie Calhoun Last edited by vegietarian18; May 8th, 2019 at 10:40 AM. |
#35
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
Where Splash and Toolbox armies excel are the RtW rounds. For example, I went 4-1 day one and 1-1 day 2. I went 3-0 against my army and 2-2 with it. I had one game where I effectively won on OM2 of Round 1 because my opponent didn't understand how to play my army. My other RtW rounds were much closer, but my opponents were once again unable to effectively piece together all the synergies and I was able to capitalize on mistakes.
My losses were to Nick the Ant and Dok. Nick had Braxas and 4x Stingers (he went 3-2, fwiw). I killed Braxas and 7 Stingers; there were just too many for my army to handle. I lost to Dok in Top 8 because I made a couple boneheaded misplays that cost the game. The charm of these armies is in how punishing they are to misplays. If you play them great, you can take down most anything (barring really strong stuff like Nick's army). If you screw up, it can be the game. It also creates pseudo-byes, as your opponent can screw up early and be in a huge hole. This is amplified when you don't have Raelin, as you mentioned. I'll probably bring a Toolbox army again this year, although I'm not sure what it'll contain. I have time; I figured out the Jorhdawn module a week or two before GenCon last year. Edit: it's also important to note the success these armies have had. Nathan took second just two years ago with a Splash army. A single year of these armies not making top 4 is not a large enough sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#36
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes
I wasn't intending this to be a grand takedown of Splash and Toolbox armies, just some observations from looking through last year's armies as I start to think about this year's.
I went 2-1 with my Splash army and 2-0 against it on Day 1 so I agree with you that the RtW rounds definitely help especially Day 1 where you are going against likely not as experienced player as Day 2. But I lost the first RtW round Day 2 to ISB3 who is a great player and probably had one of the weakest armies in the Day 2 field. I guess my thought is that Splash armies may struggle on Day 2 since they are usually going to be piloted by players who are able to figure them out since the figures and especially the roles those figures are playing in a Splash army are familiar. Whereas counterintuitively the simpler armies based on weaker figures often have more subtle and important decisions that even good players might not be familiar with if they don't intimately know the figures that are being used. My most successful Gencon run was with a pure (Krugless) Arrow Gruts build and both of my RtW wins (against good players, Hendal and Matthias) came because they made mistakes on the subtle but important decisions that Arrow Gruts entail. 10 Years of Gencon/Scapecon Battle Reports - Comic Battle Reports - Probability Calculator App - Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes "It's all about the game." - Sgt. Ernie Calhoun |
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