What's in an Order Marker? (D1, D2, and D3 up)

[theats]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I read it, and it would definitely make for some cool battle reports. I remember how often my friends and I would talk about our 6v6 Capture the Flag matches on Blood Gulch in Halo afterwards. It was a good time.

I'm also looking forward to Starcraft 2.

I didn't really intend for this thread to be a "Should we use Order Markers?" discussion. More of a... "How to use Order Markers."

Also, the more I use math, the more I start to sound like UPC's concept of IGPV. I really don't want to take credit for anyone else's work. This started as a simple gut reaction I noticed after trying to use Zombies alongside any other units.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking about the same thing only using different words, like when Karl Marx went through Wealth of Nations and replaced all notions of price with use-value and everyone thought he was a freaking genius.

I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread. I was just trying to get your opinion. But, I will try using order markers with the marvel scape.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by theats

I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread. I was just trying to get your opinion. But, I will try using order markers with the marvel scape.

I'm sorry. I'm probably coming off a bit harsh. I guess I've been surprised ever since the start when I first heard that you and others often forgo the use of order markers. Very rarely do I play large games, so it's probably a bit presumptuous of me to tell people how they should have fun.

As for Marvel Scape: if you play with just them, my friend and I both decided that with the exception of Red Skull and Captain America, they're almost universally offensive figures with ridiculous durability.

I was just thinking I might redirect the discussion back towards how I can improve my discussion of order marker usage, instead of whether I should be using them at all.

Again, I apologize.

[ej]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Again, I apologize.

No need, at least for me. I should apologize for bringing this up again. I've defended the no order marker thing we use in our house a few times and I know that all it really does is lower myself in the eyes of others. As the "arguments" sprouted up and the attacks on my intellect occurred I dug in deeper and defended myself even harder.

The truth of the matter is that I play with only one person, my kid, who asked that we not use them after we tried a few times and I agreed. I still say that the games go faster without them and it's nice to not lose turns. However, I would never approach another player and ask to not use them in a game, and Lord bless me with that chance someday.

With that I'll take my leave of this thread and see what's going on over here.

[Roland]

Its kind of funny because I was playing with a friend a couple of nights ago on the Bridge of Volcarren map and he had drafted Raelin, and constantly placed an order marker on her just to decide not to move or attack, wasting valuable order markers! Definitely going to print out this one for him

[Jexik]

I added some new links to the end for additional information, and to give credit to the hard work of others.

Also, I removed the version history to clean up the original post, and will keep it here for any who are interested:


[Edit: Just added a suggested uses section to each group to build up to the conclusion. Any tips, suggestions, comments, possible order (no pun intended) changes to the layout of the post, etc are appreciated.]
[Edit2: Started adding colors... is it too much? Man, that violet should warn you that it's pink in disguise.]
[Edit3-20. Random playing with colors and thanking whichever mod moved this to its correct location.]
[Even more edits to add in more bonded entries and fix random color annoyances. Should I tone down the Germanic Kapitalization now that I am using Kolors?]
[v. 1.35: I renamed some of the classifications to make more sense, but the spirit remains the same. I also fixed a few glaring mistakes, like the omission of Sentinels of Jandar as defenders.]
[v. 1.40 Added a funny quote. Also added Iskra Esenwein as per rdhight's suggestion.]
[v. 1.42 Changed general mentions of Krug to Menacer, but kept the other two conditional ones when describing the different categories of units.]
[v1.47? (9-26) Added links to other threads discussing similar topics, something I should have done long ago.]

[Metaknight]

This too is very interesting. Thumbsups . I think it can be useful when building armies, knowing if your going to pick all guys that shouldn't have many order markeres on them and well, hard to explain.

[Revdyer]

Whenever the order markers/no order markers discussion comes up, I think of the Monty Python skit where a game of tennis is described as "playing doubles," but they have two players on one side and three on the other. The response is to say that you can do that if you want, "But, don't go calling it 'doubles'."

I won't say, if you don't use order markers, "Don't go calling it 'HeroScape.'" I won't say it, but I'll think it.

[ArcturusII]

Nice write-up. I thought the "Shark" designation was particularly clever.

I'm curious why you marked the Sacred Band and Armoc Vipers as "2nd-Stringers." While they certainly don't have as many bonding options as the Roman Legionnaires, if you are willing to accept their heroes, they do just as well in battle.

[Jexik]

The Sacred Band and Armoc Vipers are both pretty good squads that bond. As you mentioned, they both have somewhat limited bonding options compared to the Romans or Knights of Weston. The Armocs also suffer from only having 3 members per squad. I think the main reason I don't have them listed as Bread and Butter units is that I have yet to see many people base armies solely around them in competitive events. Armies with 4 or 5 squads of Arrow Gruts or 4th. Massachusetts line are quite common, and armies prominently featuring multiple squads of Marro Stingers will likely be common in the future. Melee Orc and Roman armies are also quite popular.

The thing about some of those squads of 2nd Stringers is that with the right setting, or future releases, they can become key players in great armies. If we see more Einar or Ullar Warlords, the Band and Armocs will rise in value. The Sacred Band will also get better with each release of Disciplined units. Another common Disciplined ranged squad (like those upcoming Redcoats if they're "better" than the Ashigaru or Tag. Sam. archers) could make the Greeks quite fieldable.

I like getting use out of different figures just as much as the next guy, but I also find it difficult to put many squads in the same category as the Minutemen. The second problem with both of the squads you mention is that I'm not sure how well they fit in with any of the other categories either. Armocs might be slightly sharky due to their high movement, and the Sacred Band could be thought of as Menacers or Defenders when combined with Parmenio. I'll mull it over a bit (or wait for more releases) before placing them in different categories.

As far as the Shark comment, thanks. It's probably my favorite category name as well. The difference between Sharks and just about everything else is what inspired me to write this article. Zombies, Airborne Elite, and Venoc Vipers can all be extremely effective, but you just have to be careful how you use them.

[DoesntCompute]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

If you don't use order markers you are just not as good at strategy as those who do. You could almost say you are either not as smart or lazy.

I use order markers so that comment isn't directed at me but I found that comment and others like it in this thread to be insulting even with the wink at the end. Just because someone plays a game differently does not make them worse at strategy, less intelligent, or lazy. It means that they find the game to be more fun by altering one of the rules. To imply anything else is irresponsible at best and slandering their character at worst.

My

[Taeblewalker]

Originally Posted by DoesntCompute

I use order markers so that comment isn't directed at me but I found that comment and others like it in this thread to be insulting even with the wink at the end. Just because someone plays a game differently does not make them worse at strategy, less intelligent, or lazy. It means that they find the game to be more fun by altering one of the rules. To imply anything else is irresponsible at best and slandering their character at worst.

My

For what it's worth, my first game we didn't quite read all the rules so we played with the master game sides of the card and thought we were playing the basic game rules. We figured it out when we turned them over and said, "You mean there is something on the other side of the cards?"

We were too impressed by the terrain and too eager to get started to read everything carefully. It was kind of fun to choose whomever we wanted.

I will say that you lose point value with certain powers like Crippling Gaze, Utgar's Orders, Red Flag of Fury Aura, etc. when you remove order markers. Perhaps you can change the value of those units.

[Jexik]

Now that I've actually been to a tournament and seen how units are used a bit more by other people, I've amended my categories a bit.

Bread and Butter units are now squads that require 2-6 squads to be effective, and serve as the backbone of an army, even to the exclusion of Cleanup figures.

I added Marro Stingers to the Menacer category, because they are very strong and very dependable, but they are limited by their low mobility and the fact that they only have 3 figures per squad. Most Menacers are A class units, and the Stingers are no exception to this rule.

I put the Armoc Vipers, Ashigaru, and Aubrien Archers down as Sharks, and the Sacred band as Defenders. Marrden Hounds are also Defenders, and I might just make Tagawa Samurai Archers as a new Menacer. I removed the 2nd String category altogether.

I answered my own question about Venoc Warlord, placing him in the Cheerleader category most of the time, but as a 'Shark who also bonds' when drafted with the Armocs.

Nilfheim is now also listed as a Menacer. He used to be a Shark. He's a bit tougher than Braxas and Mimring.

If I'm missing any units, or you wish to argue any classifications, feel free to PM me or raise questions here.

For fun's sake, I'll add the NHSD champs' armies in this post with my color classifications:

spider_poison
4x Marro Stingers 240
2x Deathreavers 320
Raelin (RotV) 400
Kaemon Awa 520
Isamu 530

Revdyer
4x 4th. Massachusetts Line 280
2x Sentinels of Jandar 500