Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

First I count 5 units: Zombie Hulk, ZI, Priscus, Thorian, Crug'Xrath (Dashi and the Sneaks on the way)....
You forgot Thorian, didn't you?

If you mean Tyrian, no, I didn't forget him. Cxurg'Xath has not passed United Fanscape vote, so he isn't officially approved yet. And Dashi doesn't have enough votes yet. So 4 approved (Zombie Hulk, Zettian Infantry, Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior, and Priscus) and 2 on the way (Cxurg'yath and Beakface Sneaks).

Originally Posted by Foudzing

The fact ZI did "OK" in one of our tournament don't make them competitive. The Anubians Wolves went first in one of our tournaments. Are they competitive? No, it was just a great exploit and good luck by the player (and maybe the fact he had also Q9 in this army).

If seeing them appear in a tournament and achieve a winning record does not meet your criteria, what does? Does it have to be a Q9, Raelin, or Rats? Or 10th/4th/Knights level? And let me ask again, is there any unit currently up for review or has ever been up for SoV review that meets your criteria?

[Heroscaper Guy]

Tyrian could be good most likely with deathreavers, raelin, and 190 points of whatever. Deathreavers go and tie up those coming towards him. Tyrian, on height and with raelin can snipe twice at figures. The rest of the figures take care of the what's left.

[ZBeeblebrox]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I see the point you're trying to make, but that is an unfair comparison. C3V and SoV are completely different. C3V has full control over how powerful/competitive their units are; the SoV has no control.

Scapers who actually play her at 200 points feel that she is costed correctly.

We tested her at 150, and she was broken...she beat 4th Mass, Knights and Q9 armies at least 80% of the time with Sacred band!! We had to raise her points or she'd be better that any other unit...period...I did a lot of those early tests. It ended up being, we had to raise her enough so you were limited on how many squads you can play with her in a 500ish point game.

[Arch-vile]

Originally Posted by ZBeeblebrox

Scapers who actually play her at 200 points feel that she is costed correctly.

I've played one 400 point game with:
Arashara
4x Sacred Band
vs
a Cyprien + skellies army.

Arashara's team won with quite a few Greeks (and Arashara with a few wounds) remaining. When I first saw her card I thought there was a typo. Once I played her I realized how formidable she really is, and worth 200 points. At 150 I'd be terrified to see her on my opponent's team. Greeks and Romans are 50 points each... that's incredibly cheap for a 4-man bonding ranged squad with 3 attack.

[robbdaman]

For what it's worth Foudzing; I have often thought that many of the SoV units that get through are someone on the weaker side of things and the stringent requirements that submissions go through and the length of time it takes to do so are a tad frustrating. I've almost given up on submitting to SoV and resubmitting Gor'Vath may never happen even though I know there are people who would like to see him get through.

However my personal thoughts as part of SoV's counterpart C3V is that it is best to work with them instead of complaining about it extensively. If I want SoV to work better picking fights and telling them they aren't doing a good enough job is detrimental to that.

[Foudzing]

Caps: Tssssk don't try too fool me: Megasilver did not won General War... He was the first who played Ullar but only 6th...

Your performance with the WoA is really good, and I congratulate you for this run, but that does not make the WoA competitive (same story as our player who won with Q9+anubians wolves).

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Tssssk don't try too fool me: Megasilver did not won General War... He was the first who played Ullar but only 6th...

Your performance with the WoA is really good, and I congratulate you for this run, but that does not make the WoA competitive (same story as our player who won with Q9+anubians wolves).

What the heck? No one's trying to fool you.

I course I didn't win General Wars with Ullar. That's near impossible.

Also, I didn't win Ullar with WoA. I am THE VIPER KING. I won Ullar with Venoc Warlord, Vipers x7, Arkmer. Can't you tell by my pic and sig?

C3V/SoV is NOT allowed at GenCon either.

.....

On another note, WoA are competitive, especially in melee-friendly events (Heat of Battle, Slugfest, etc.). They're just not used much in tourneys outside of those events, though.

[caps]

The WoA are at least a solid B. I think only B+ or higher units are enough for Foundzing. C3V has released a few--the Havechs and the Incendiborgs spring to mind. There are more on the way, I think. As for the SoV, the only competitive units that have been submitted have been broken or at least underpriced--green wyrmlings, greenspawn assassins, and Gor'Vath all come to mind.

All I can say, Foundzing, is that the SoV will start passing balanced, competitive customs when people start submitting balanced, competitive customs to be judged by them. If you want that to happen, then make it happen--make some customs yourself and contribute to the customs community here to improve the quality. Nominate some customs you see with good availability that meet your standards.

[Foudzing]

My bad, I tought Cruxg'Yrath was officially approved.

Originally Posted by Scytale

If seeing them appear in a tournament and achieve a winning record does not meet your criteria, what does? Does it have to be a Q9, Raelin, or Rats? Or 10th/4th/Knights level? And let me ask again, is there any unit currently up for review or has ever been up for SoV review that meets your criteria?

Well, a squad which can win without Q9, meets my criteria.
It does not have to be Q9/Raelin/rats/Knights/10th/4th level, just B+ or higher.

Again I love the ZI pretty much, but it's sad it's the strongest card from SoV.

And I don't know exactly what units you're currently reviewing, I don't follow SoV that much, but I buy the figures when they're worth it (I bought only 2 squads of ZI from SoV but a lot of C3V stuff).

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

What the heck? No one's trying to fool you.

I course I didn't win General Wars with Ullar. That's near impossible.

I agree with you... Maybe it's near impossible because WoA and Vipers are not competitive squads?
And btw I knew you played Vipers... I was talking about Caps's performance...

ZBeeblebox: It's maybe the fact that I don't have 6 squads of Sacred Band which makes me feel she's overpriced. Personally I feel she is, and majority of french players play her at 80/100points without bonding, it's much more fun.

Robbaman: When I think an unit is bad I tell it. When I think an unit is good, I tell it. I congratulated the Zombie Hulk, the ZI and Priscus. And I will congratulate for Dashi if it passes because I think it's a good unit.
I think at the moment there is a real lack of B+ or more figures so I tell it, and I try to understand why, I'm not complaining for complaining.

Caps: I'm not telling that only B+ or more are enough, I am telling that Heroscape needs B+ or more units, as it needs also B or lower units. And when I read the review reports I have the feelings that the judges are very strict for strong units (Gor'Vath, Green Wyrmling, Greenspawn Assassin) compare to weaker units.

Yes, I agree with you caps all I need is to make a good custom which will be accepted, but for example when we finalized Kheris, we considered overpriced him (make him around 140/160points instead of 120) in order to see him go throught the SoV.
At the moment I think a unit which cost more than it should be have more chance to pass through SoV than a unit which is correctly priced, and I think this is a problem.

Thank you to those who take time answering me.
Like you all I support the SoV, I don't want to see the SoV stop, but I think sometimes criticism is good, and even if I recognize some of my critics were not valid (Scytale pointed it out), and I sincerely apologize for this, some were and I think it's good to talk about it and not just saying "cool figure!".

[dok]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Your performance with the WoA is really good, and I congratulate you for this run, but that does not make the WoA competitive (same story as our player who won with Q9+anubians wolves).

Ah, OK. This is the old debate on what makes a figure competitive. It doesn't really belong here, in the SoV thread.

Try this thread for a trip down memory lane, and feel free to add if you have something to say that hasn't already been said there. Here's an arguably even more relevant discussion, where pre-release speculation about a certain figure was that it might not be competitive.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

I'm not telling that only B+ or more are enough, I am telling that Heroscape needs B+ or more units, as it needs also B or lower units. And when I read the review reports I have the feelings that the judges are very strict for strong units (Gor'Vath, Green Wyrmling, Greenspawn Assassin) compare to weaker units.

You said before that you believed the judges when they said that Gor'Vath and the Green Wyrmling were broken. Do you no longer believe that?

The judges here are pretty strict on all units, the highly competitive ones and the non-competitive ones. Including Cxurgy and the Sneaks, only 6 of the 26 units that received enough votes either way passed, and of those 20 units that were turned down only the couple units previously mentioned could arguably have been turned down because they were too strong.

I appreciate the criticism, but the numbers just don't back you up.

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Yes, I agree with you caps all I need is to make a good custom which will be accepted, but for example when we finalized Kheris, we considered overpriced him (make him around 140/160points instead of 120) in order to see him go throught the SoV.

Honestly, this scares me. As I hope my number-crunching above demonstrates, there is no evidence to say that SoV judges are harder on highly-competitive units than non-competitive ones. The fact that no highly-competitive units have passed through SoV so far does not indicate anything about judging preferences; as I have said before the SoV does not control what gets submitted. Heck, perhaps other submitters felt the same as you, right or wrong, and weakened their submissions for a supposed better chance of making it through the process.

[infectedsloth]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

I don't blame the ZI, great custom, good unit, but not competitive in my opinion and in your opinion too because we don't see them in americans tournaments.
So it's 0%...

I just took ZI to a a 3-2 record less then a month ago. If my full life Warden doesn't lose to Raelin who had 4 wounds, I would have been 4-1. Not every tournament allows custom figures, if they did you would see more positive results, but there is positive results already.

Originally Posted by Foudzing

In France someone brought them in a "bring the two" format went 2-1 with, not bad, but one of this win was against Varnakaan (pretty good machup) and the other win was against a young player who was already last place and who didn't really want to play.
His lost was against me so I don't fear the Z.I at all.

So let me get this straight, you beat the ZI so their automatically not competitive? You say that they beat the Varnakaan, because they were a good match up, but that's the thing, their ranged soulborgs that bond with large, single spaced, ranged soulborgs with special attacks, they have tons of great match ups. By your logic if PKs beat 4th mass then the PKs suck, because if was a good match up for them.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

That must make me pretty ballsy. I went to the Semi-Finals (one win away from the finals) with
80 Raelin
200 Kaemon Awa
450 5xWarriors of Ashra

In the online tournament. The loss that ejected me was a very, very close game against a strong all-range build. If I had played smarter at the beginning (and maybe had a little more luck) I'm convinced I could have won.

MegaSilver is also pretty ballsy. He won General Wars at GenCon with a Vipers+Mittens build.

Killercactus made it to day 2 of the main event at GENCON with VIPERS, what more do you want?

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Caps: Tssssk don't try too fool me: Megasilver did not won General War... He was the first who played Ullar but only 6th...

Getting 6th in generals wars with anything is impressive, so don't diminish Megasilver accomplishment.

How about you play some games with the figures before judging them? It's fine to have qualms about a fiugre, but thinking your theory scape is some how more accurate then the thoughts of people who have played dozens of games with them, is a flawed way of thinking.