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General Random thoughts and ideas. "General" does not mean random drivel, nonsense or inane silliness. |
View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists? | |||
I know God through reason, science, etc. | 3 | 7.89% | |
I accept God through belief or personal revelation | 11 | 28.95% | |
Other | 12 | 31.58% | |
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope | 12 | 31.58% | |
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll |
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#145
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Known Unknowns
As a person of faith, I don't feel insanely certain about the universe, but I'm fairly comfortable with the larger cosmological uncertainty and for what I have experienced, the Christian deity makes the most sense to me and I believe it to be reality but certainty is not a word I would use.
~Dysole, self admittedly a less common flavor of Christian in America today My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
#146
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
Oh no, the inconsistencies in my own beliefs are being noticed!
Determinism doesn't make me certain at all about what is going to happen, just that what will happen would always have happened if initial conditions remained the same (basic chaos theory, I think). Where I get uncertain is about what is going to happen, and more specifically what caused and will be caused by the maybe amounts of (what I very subjectively perceive as) evil in the world. If I could put stock into that there is this benevolent God it would free up that worry, but I don't find myself capable of that (although worry is the wrong word, seeing as I sleep like a bear and think I'd be pretty okay with whatever happens, unless it is something that is really outside of my realm of possibility, i.e., hell). Repaints My Maps Online Maps Customs CoN is FuN
Q3C Custom Contests How can you tell which kid at the playground is going to grow up to be a trombone player?
Spoiler Alert!
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#148
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
PBS has an incredible series on this subject and you can watch it on youtube.
Closer to Truth I really dig this one as the the guy asking the questions is incredibly open minded and seeks out as many sides and perspectives as he can. The website is here. Lots of good stuff. |
#149
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
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#150
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
@Aldin
@Dr.Goomonkey
I wish to preface my response with an apology to both of you, and by saying that while I welcome responses from you both, I do not have any expectations as so much time has elapsed between now and the original discussion.
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Nor am I intending to claim that, should god reveal himself to everyone, evil people would simply stop being evil. In fact, I know many people who claim to know god exists, but still hate him. What I am discussing however, is what you mention as well: the salvation of as many people as possible; and given the attributes of god, he wants this and can accomplish this without the removal of free will. Someone like myself, for instance, would be added to the number of souls saved if god's existence were simply made clear; I would freely choose that. Some people would freely choose not to be saved. Bad people would still exist, so even if the loophole you provided were necessarily true (although I don't think it is) my argument still provides for that. Quote:
1) Quote:
Or.... 2) Quote:
If you are making an informed decision, then there is rational and reason behind it, and hence, people have reasoned less well and clear headed than you. Quote:
Honestly, I'm not sure. I certainly can say past experience and knowledge, and I am happy to say so. But then what differentiates the time I choose vanilla vs. the time I choose chocolate? Like I said, I'm very unsure about determinism and hesitant to engage it beyond the scope of existential belief. I would also amend where I said belief is not a choice when I originally responded to this, Quote:
I wish to offer two rebuttals to the idea that existential belief is not deterministic: 1) If belief is a choice, was Lucifer robbed of freewill by knowing god existed? 2) Allow me to provide an analogy. Imagine you go skiing. This was a choice you made, along with what skis you used, which mountain you skied at .etc. However, when skiing you happen to get caught up in avalanche. Was the choice yours to get caught in the avalanche? Or was it merely an undeniable product of your choices? In the same way you can make choices in life (such as to take a math class, a philosophy class, or going skiing) and then arrive upon a deterministic event (2+2=4, god does or does not exist, or getting hit by an avalanche). Quote:
Once again, I apologize for having taken so long to respond, and I understand that having done so twice has its implications. ~JS |
#151
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
@JS
I don't think I see human beings and decision making the same way you do. I don't really think of rationality as something that exists in fine gradations with each individual either a little more rational or a little less rational than the person standing next to them. In my book, anyone who can generally be trusted to make reasonable decisions is rational. I'd put something over 95% of all adults into that category. I recognize that pretty much all of those rational people will make poor choices over time. I know I certainly make poor choices from time to time. The fact that people are generally reasonable and sometimes make poor choices is part of what I think of as being human. It is simply the state that pretty much every adult I know lives in. Doesn't that do a pretty good job of describing the world you see around you - lots of people who are fully capable of living their lives making a bunch of decisions that are different from the ones you would make? Does it seem more likely to you that it is a function of everyone being either more or less rational than you, or does it seem more likely it is simply the result of different people being different? For me, I accept that it is different people being different and I respect their right to make those choices without it forcing any sort of judgment from me about who they are as a person. And make no mistake, that is the result of the method you propose. If everyone is either more or less rational than you, you are making value judgments about how "good" of a person someone is based on their decisions relative to your understanding of them. You make yourself the ultimate adjudicator of right and wrong. Seems like an awfully heavy burden to me. I prefer to accept others as my full equals even when I disagree with decisions they have made. Do I think my choice of God is better than choosing "not God"? Absolutely. But that doesn't make me better, smarter, cleverer, more clear-headed, or anything than the person who chooses "not God". They have their reasons and I respect that. Given the opportunity, I am happy to discuss those differences with the hope of showing them how wonderful the choice of God is, but that isn't the same thing as rejecting their ability to reason because they are in a different place from me with respect to that belief. As for the rest... Quickly (so I don't go crazy wondering if we are talking about the same thing), let's define "existential belief", which is a term that has nothing to do with existentialism and with which I've been struggling a bit just because my brain wants to tell me that it does. If I understand you correctly "existential belief" is any belief a person holds based on their interpretation of such overwhelming evidence that is becomes impossible in their minds not to hold that belief. e.g. Aldin interacts on a daily basis with his wife of 23 years, his belief in her existence is existential belief. And on to your numbered entries: Boy do you open fun cans of worms. I'm not convinced whether or not the angels (including Lucifer) have free will. I don't think that's particularly clear from the Bible. It is clear that they are not human, were not created in God's image and do not take part in being redeemed. Anything I said beyond that would be pure speculation. Your #2 has a correlation/causation problem. Getting caught up in the avalanche was only correlated to my choices, it isn't in any way a product of them. I'm really not entirely clear on where you were going with these. It seems you may be allowing for non-deterministic choice, but I'm not certain. Can you clarify? ~Aldin, still getting notifications He either fears his fate too much or his desserts are small That dares not put it to the touch to gain or lose it all ~James Graham |
#152
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
I got a quick line of questions for you Aldin.
Did Jesus teach from the Bible? If so it was obviously the Old Testament correct? If that is the case, then why is the New Testament even necessary? I mean if the Old was good enough for Jesus and his followers went to Heaven what is the point of the New Testament and who exactly decided that it is the word of God? What purpose does the Church provide if one can go to Heaven without attending Church or is that not possible? Is Church the gateway to Heaven? @ollie I wish I had the intellect to understand your paper. |
#153
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
I want to preface all these answers with the comment that there straightforward answers to these questions and there are complex answers to these questions. I will be treating everything as straightforward for my response with a willingness to explore in greater detail if desired.
Yes, often with insight and interpretation which was very unexpected. Yes. Quote:
Christians believe that the teachings of Jesus were necessary to more fully understand the teachings of the Old Testament and also that the death and resurrection of Jesus were necessary to fulfill the promise of the Old Testament. They further believe that a group known as the apostles were given "God-breathed" inspiration to write letters to the early churches containing true instruction for how to live as Christians. One way Jesus's teachings turned the traditional understanding on its head is by transforming an Old Testament of "don't" into a New Testament of "do". The ten commandments were primarily a list of thou shalt nots - don't murder, don't steal, don't create false idols, etc. When the religious teachers asked Jesus which commandment was the most important, instead of picking one of the ten, He went elsewhere in the Old Testament, saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." And appended a second "Love your neighbor as yourself". He said that everything else hung on those two commandments. It was a revolutionary way of thinking. Instead of a list of what to avoid, He basically taught we should try to always do what is most right as best we understand it. There was a great deal of agreement in the early church as to which of the books were "God-breathed", but it isn't possible to point to some one event as the place where specific people decided on specific books. The council of Nicea is often referred to as the moment when the New Testament in its final form was accepted, but as far as I know that is not proven. Quote:
The only gateway to Heaven is accepting the free gift of salvation. It is a process of acknowledging we are separated from God by our sin, that there is nothing we can do to be perfect, and that death is the result of that separation. We accept that Jesus, the Son of God, was perfect and paid the price for the sin that separates us from God. And we accept that sacrifice for us by acknowledging that sin, that sacrifice, and asking God to accept us into His family by covering our sin with that sacrifice. That's it. If we ask, He accepts. That's all the gateway there ever is. The Bible recommends spending time with other believers for all the reasons I mentioned above, but it isn't part of actually going to Heaven. ~Aldin, trying for simply He either fears his fate too much or his desserts are small That dares not put it to the touch to gain or lose it all ~James Graham |
#154
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities
Thank you.
So basically, nearly every aspect of the religion is unnecessary as long as you accept Jesus? No need to attend Church, tithe, read the Bible or even try to be a good person since we are all sinners anyway. Simply accept Jesus, go to Heaven? Do the priests that sexually abuse children go to Heaven because they choose Jesus and the native living in the Amazon rain forest does not because he has never heard of Jesus? If the native does get to go to Heaven then telling him about Jesus opens up a path to Hell that never existed before that knowledge? |
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