C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

[Xotli]

My thoughts:

There are always going to be units that people complain about. In general, different people will complain about different units, but there will be a few that almost everyone will complain about. Like Q9, or rats, or the minutemen. This is just a part of our game: it was part of the official game, and it continues to be part of the game in the era of Fanscape. To me, that indicates we're doing something right, not something wrong. I want VC to be just like official Heroscape was ... for better, and for worse.

That having been said, I personally am not opposed to us re-evaluating a unit that has a major problem, as we did with Elaria. I personally am not seeing a major problem here, but, if it turns out I'm wrong and it is major, I would be happy to vote for a re-evaluation.

At our local tourneys, we use a restricted list (which we unabashedly stole from the Dallas crew). Rats are on the list, as are the 4th Mass, and Q9, and the KMA, and Stingers, etc. This year I'm lobbying hard to have the Cathars and Quahon added (we already added the Vulcanmechs last year). I'm also lobbying to put a 300pt limit on multiples for units on the restricted list, which would limit you to 4 squads of Cathars (or 4x 4th Mass, or 8x FEs, or 2x Fen Hydras, assuming I can get those last two added as well--the list seems to be light on the D&D units, which perhaps is just due to its age). So I feel like solutions such as these are excellent ways to keep the cheese out of the tourneys.

Not to avoid overpowered VC builds. Not to avoid overpowered official builds. Just to avoid overpowered builds. See? We're all the same here.

[William099]

I played against a 4x Cathar, Count Raymond, Zelrig build with 4x Zombies, Cyprien and 2x Zombie hulks and pulled out the win, I think its kind of silly do declare a unit so frustrating as to ban it from play, its Heroscape yes there are match ups that look pretty slanted from the beginning, but at the end of the day you never know what is going to happen!

And it was a very fun game to boot, so to say Cathar vs. melee isn't any fun doesn't strike me as true, both my opponent and I had a great time.

[White Q Knight]

I think the Cathar Spearmen are just fine the way they are; the only tournament I played against them and loss was Vulcanmech Borgs, Havach Eradicators (3), Me Burq Sa vs Marcus, Cathar Spearmen (4), Syyvaris; it was a close game the Vulcanmech Borgs wrecked most of the Spearmen before falling the Havach Eradicators didn't do so well it was a rough go against the Spearmen but it was still a great game. Anyways I think C3V is doing a great job lots of cool units keep up the good work.

[Sir Dendrik]

For what it's worth, I've always had a lot of fun playing with and against the Cathars. They're well above average in fun factor imo.

Silent majority chiming in.

[Dysole]

After playing with Rygarn in several games throughout OHS S15 I think he is at least worth a B+. If you have any army that needs to rotate between two very good forces depending on what your opponent does (especially if they are common squads), Rygarn is amazing at allowing you to set up your order markers to do this. Plus 6 range 4 attack, with a pseudo-Vanish-Stealth Armor ain't exactly shabby and he'll likely be using it in the end game when those abilities are magnified even more. He'll fall to any sort of concentrated attack but in general if you keep him at the back keeping your OMs safe and then bring him out for the end game he should easily prove his worth.

~Dysole, who also loves a Scape figure that allows him to quote Doctor Who

[dok]

It's an interesting question. My standard for power rankings is generally "value added in the figure's strongest build". Rygarn doesn't do much beyond cleanup in most of the strongest builds, because OM management is generally less important when you're playing massed squads.

The obvious exception among dominant builds, though, would be the most metagamey army of all: the ratpodges with strong ranged uniques. Rygarn allows you to get that OM switched from Q9 to rats, or to the Hydra, just when you need it. That can be huge, for sure. That said, even there, I don't feel he pushes the power of those builds in a typical format, because the alternatives in his price range that fit those armies (Raelin, Krav, etc) are pretty awesome.

Still, looking at it in a very narrow way like that, I could actually justify an A- ranking, just by saying that he is that good in those builds. It's just that A- is actually weak by the standards of those builds.

It's a tricky call. Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

[Dad_Scaper]

He may not be bacon, but perhaps he is onion rings. Pretty good with just about everything, but not a game-breaker. Definitely not bacon.

Do onion rings get an A-?

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

He may not be bacon, but perhaps he is onion rings. Pretty good with just about everything, but not a game-breaker. Definitely not bacon.

Do onion rings get an A-?

Awesome description!

I see him as B+ myself, but it could go either way. Needs more gameplay I think.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Comparisons to underpriced units like Raelin and the Krav highlight the gorilla in the room that continues to be ignored - the flawed, set in stone, Classic pricing system. An evolutionary pricing system, such as Delta+, should be a priority focus for those in a position to influence the Community. It deserves at least as much attention as C3V/SoV, and from the same people. I don't understand why it has been virtually abandoned.

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but respect for those who have demonstrated their commitment to Heroscape over and over again, and their knowledge of, and love of, Heroscape. There was a moment, when Delta+ was into its later, seasonal, pattern of revisions, and a few tournaments utilized it, that I thought it was about to take off. Then it was allowed to founder. I just don't understand. Am I so wrong to rail at the Community's apparent acceptance of the status quo?

The first step towards wisdom is to admit you know nothing. ~ Socrates

This is most certainly true when it comes to this issue.

[Dad_Scaper]

Bah. Kolakoski, there are other ways to account for the existence of over- and under- priced units than changing the existing unit. If you are playing with a large, changing group of people, many of whom pay little or no attention to this fine forum, changing the prices of existing units would be the death knell of your local metagame.

Different strokes for different folks.

[dok]

Bring 2 and other draft-ish formats are great ways to level this stuff out...

But that is a discussion for another thread. I was making a point about my methodology when coming up with the rankings. Comparison to Krav or Raelin is necessary if the only top-tier builds that Rygarn enhances significantly are ones where he is competing for a spot in the army with those figures.

This does not change, or actually have anything at all to do with, the merits of variable pricing.

[kevindola]

Originally Posted by dok

It's an interesting question. My standard for power rankings is generally "value added in the figure's strongest build".

So that's a critical point to assessing value on any figure. I tried to see what originally the power rankings metagame is based on and I only looked as far as spider's OP, and only found this:

Originally Posted by spider_poison

All units are ranked according to a generic criterion: their "usefulness."

A fairly ambiguous term. Perhaps it is explained further in the original thread, but I wasn't going to dig into it. For example Spartacus is more 'useful' in a 1000 point army than he is in a 300 point army. What criteria are being used for a figure's 'strongest build'?

I bring this question up in regards to Rygarn because he is an interesting case. In a game where you have no order marker decisions (bonding, spammed squads) or in perfectly played game he is going to add 0 value because you will have no need for Chrono-Key as you will be placing order markers perfectly.

But his value is very high in games where you have multiple army cards to shift between. Rat podges have the easiest visibility as dok outlined. He increases the potency of many dual army card armies (especially common squads that can leave a straggler in the start zone for him to move OMs to.

I see Rygarn's main ability as giving you more attack per round than you normally would. In the games I've seen him played in that has been the case. An order marker placed on a figure to either shore up a screen or bring in a second wave of units can instead be moved to the primary attacking force that still held position and therefore give the Rygarn player 2-3 more attacks per round. (The reverse of this can be just as useful when a unit that you expected to be able to attack can't so you can use your order marker elsewhere) In most cases I would take 2-3 attacks per round (which is what he's doing in his optimal usage, granted this requires less than optimal order marker management) over having Raelin.

These powers are most shown in draft style formats (take 2, pod drafting, straight figure drafting...), since those are more likely to include a variety of army cards within a single army. And in those style armies, I can definitely see him being as valuable as Raelin in a significant amount of situations......however, if the criteria for ranking is blind army build, 500 points, 24 spaces no restrictions, then he belongs in the B range.

I also recognize my discussion is strictly about his OM shifting. There are points to be made about his 6 range + defensive teleporting as well what impact Chrono-Key does to the overall gameplay in terms of strategy reduction. (this discussion point is not relevant to his power ranking)