What's for dinner?

[Aldin]

My perspective on Vegetarianism and Veganism is slightly different, arising from my beliefs about evolution and what the Bible has to say on the subject. Before the Noahic Flood, humans weren't free to eat meat. We were created as stewards of the planet, animals weren't violent and plants supplied all the nutrition humans and animals needed. Due to sin, perfect genetic codes were corrupted and over time plants became incomplete sources of nutrition.

After the Noahic Flood, God gives animals to humans as food. Certain types were prohibited (think Kosher). After Jesus' resurrection, Peter was further told that any animal could now be eaten. In the future, the Earth will be restored to its pre-sin state and there will be universal Veganism.

For now, I eat meat, but it wouldn't take much to convice me to follow a more vegatarian diet. I love Edamame and Garbanzo beans and other non-meat sources of protein, but at the same time salivate over good barbeque. I have several Vegatarian friends (Hi, Gulp!) and have no qualms whatsoever about the choices they've made.

I have no intent of turning this into a creation/evolution debate, but I wanted to point out that a desire for Veganism is very much in line with Biblical Christianity.

~Aldin, who has Vegitarian friends who would eat bbq in Kansas City once per year as a treat (and inevitably felt sick afterward)

[dok]

As far as the gardening advice goes, it's tough to offer better/more specific advice without knowing where you live and what you've tried to grow. And I'm not the gardening expert in my household, anyway.

Do you have a farmer's market around you? Look at what stuff the locals bring that is abundant and tasty. Try growing that stuff.

Originally Posted by ollie

I've eaten ostrich too and wasn't that impressed. It was too lean and didn't seem to have a great deal of flavour. A bit harsh to write it off from one go though.

I've only had it a few times, myself, but it was great each time. I had ostrich steak, ostrich cutlets, and ostrich stew while in South Africa on our honeymoon, and it was awesome in each form. I've also had ostrich burgers. As you say, very lean, so it can be tricky to cook well. This is the same as Buffalo, another favorite of mine. Obviously, I have a preference for lean red meats.

Originally Posted by Aldin

Aldin, who has Vegitarian friends who would eat bbq in Kansas City once per year as a treat (and inevitably felt sick afterward)

Yeah, meat can be tough for your digestive system to handle if you don't eat it regularly. I have a friend who will only eat meat that was caught wild, which happens pretty rarely. She has to be very careful with portion control or she gets sick.

[Einar's puppy]

Here's the thing:

I enjoy meat, and I eat it regularly. I don't normally use discretion on pasture raised or held in a kennel until they keel over and die. Why? Because what ever is on sale is on my plate. That being said, Pork is a real mainstay at my house.

I totally understand vegetarianism, and I have a vegetarian friend. I just think that humans are Omnivores, so I'm going to use that as an excuse as to why I eat meat. I really don't like the idea of killing other creatures for food (as you can see from my sig I don't like anything related to hunting really) but I'm weak and it tastes good.

Veganism is a little too extreme. I really think you should cook your food, because it just tastes better that way. Not to mention that cows have to be milked regularly for their health. I do admire the effort though.

Really, I admire those who can stick to a vegetarian diet. I would myself if meat didn't taste so darn good!

Sidenote: My dad works with a man who eats nothing but meat and grains. He has horrible health, and he could die before he hits 70 because of it. An all meat diet is really not good at all.

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

I totally understand vegetarianism, and I have a vegetarian friend. I just think that humans are Omnivores, so I'm going to use that as an excuse as to why I eat meat. I really don't like the idea of killing other creatures for food (as you can see from my sig I don't like anything related to hunting really) but I'm weak and it tastes good.

Veganism is a little too extreme. I really think you should cook your food, because it just tastes better that way. Not to mention that cows have to be milked regularly for their health. I do admire the effort though.

I appreciate your honesty. I wanted to point out cows don't actually need to be milked for their health. Cows were doing quite fine for a long time before we showed up with a bucket. They only need to be milked because their calf was taken away. Technically, yes, the ones in the factory farms need to milked, but that's not natural circumstances.

Also, vegans can cook their food. They just can't buy/eat animal products, and even then there's going to be a wide variety of vegans who may break some of the traditional vegan rules. It's all complicated and not very interesting.

[SuperflyTNT]

Blueberry soup and whatnot...there's a good Vegan place in Pittsburg, in the hood which is really funny...

http://www.quietstormcoffee.com/

Personally, I'd be a vegetarian too if animals weren't made of that damned meat stuff that tastes so good!

[TOG]

Originally Posted by dok

This is only a bad thing if you think that income taxes are super awesome and the government should use income taxes over all other forms of taxation. Me, I think income taxes (or at least the lower few brackets) are pretty bad public policy, and I'd much rather tax the things above in stead of taxing the working class for, well, working.

I'll tolerate income taxes if it leads to a balanced budget, and eventually into the black. Which in turn makes room for taxes to be cut. What you are proposing is consumption based taxes, which are too some extent already in place. Your gas tax for example. Most if not all states tax each gallon of gas. So the more miles you drive, the more tax you pay. You propose paying more tax on a heavier vehicle. The tax on diesel is already higher than the tax on gas, at least in my state.

What you should be really looking for is a value added tax. Taxes collected at the point of manufacture. This way everyone pays in accordance with what they're spending.


Oh, and I'm skipping dinner tonight, still full from lunch.

[Einar's puppy]

Originally Posted by Gulp

I appreciate your honesty. I wanted to point out cows don't actually need to be milked for their health. Cows were doing quite fine for a long time before we showed up with a bucket. They only need to be milked because their calf was taken away. Technically, yes, the ones in the factory farms need to milked, but that's not natural circumstances.

I know this, I was just saying that because most Cows you see today are living in those cruel, unhealthy, disgusting factory-farms (there is a movie coming out soon called Food.inc. It tells this story, and I recomend it highly. Of course, I haven't seen it, but I have seen the director speak on a show) and so they are the ones that need to be milked.

Also, vegans can cook their food. They just can't buy/eat animal products, and even then there's going to be a wide variety of vegans who may break some of the traditional vegan rules. It's all complicated and not very interesting.

This I did not know. I was watching a show once (TV gives me my knowledges) where a woman explained that because she was a vegan, she did not even cook her vegies because "we were not meant to burn God's creations." I guess she was just a little extreme.

Here's my question though: Can vegans/vegetarians eat cakes and stuff made with milk/eggs?

[ElvenEnvy]

Originally Posted by Einar's puppy

Here's my question though: Can vegans/vegetarians eat cakes and stuff made with milk/eggs?

I hope the answer to this would be no or the whole point would be lost. There's a vegitarian on Youtube who preaches vegitarianism and puts down people who eat meat, eat eggs, and drink milk. Then one day he was talking about one of his favorite snacks, a kind of cracker/cookie deal- the ingrediants include whey and eggs. He'll tell you you're bad person for taking "cruelty-full" milk and eating unborn chickens, yet by eating his favorite snack he's supporting and ingesting these "horrible things".

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Jandarforever

Regarding all this talk about fertalizing with waste products, does chicken crap work okay? For the first time, we're raising chickens (somewhere around twenty), and what Ollie has said about duck crap makes me wonder if chickens will do the same. We do have six rabbits, and have been using their waste for fertalizing newly planted trees and shrubs. Rabbit waste is supposedly some of the best stuff you can use for fertalizing, but six rabbits can only crap so much, so would chicken waste work well in a big garden?

Should be fine (from what I've read, not my own experience). You might not want to put it on fresh, but letting it compost in their bedding for a few months should make it fine.

Originally Posted by Aldin

<snip>
Due to sin, perfect genetic codes were corrupted and over time plants became incomplete sources of nutrition.
<snip>

Interesting stuff Aldin. We've discussed genetic code thing elsewhere (probably sufficiently ) but I was curious about the second part. It seems perfectly possible to live a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet.

Originally Posted by Dok

This is the same as Buffalo, another favorite of mine. Obviously, I have a preference for lean red meats.

Heh, I have similar reservations about Buffalo from the handful of times I've had it. I love the flavour and richness that fat gives meat. (It doesn't necessarily have to be eaten; cooking with it on is usually sufficient. I do tend to eat it though. However if I was worried that I was eating too much fat, dairy would be my target for reduction---the little meat fat I eat is such a small proportion of the total.)

Originally Posted by Einar's Puppy

Here's my question though: Can vegans/vegetarians eat cakes and stuff made with milk/eggs?

Yes they can. Sort of. There isn't a list of rules of what can and can't be eaten; it's an individual choice each time. However, there are some pretty universally accepted practices---someone who eats milk or eggs would not be considered vegan by anyone, I don't think. I know vegans that eat honey and vegans that don't. Rule of thumb: vegetarian means "doesn't eat meat" and vegan means "doesn't eat animal products".

My favourite example of how it comes down to individual ethical choices is a friend of mine from when I lived in London. She was (is, probably, we haven't been in touch for a while) a strict vegan including not buying leather. However, for her, an object was wiped clean of its unethical past once it passed through a thrift store: the item had done everything it was designed for and the cruelty had been accounted for. At this point it is more ethical to get more use out of it than to shun it. She had a couple of beautiful fur coats.

I guess that sort of illustrates how I like to think about ethical food (and other) choices. A strict line that says "vegetarian" does not capture the subtleties---some meat is "ethical"; some vegetables are not. Of course, this is my own definition of ethical, and it's more of a continuum than an either/or. I guess I'd like to see everyone thinking about these things, setting up a framework for what they consider ethical, and acting accordingly. For me, that last part is the kicker, and the strongest reason I can think of for me going vegetarian: it's often the better choice and much easier to impose on myself. I'd take the fact that the vast bulk of meat consumed in the US is factory-farmed to indicate that people aren't, in general, thinking about the issues. But maybe I'm wrong---maybe people have considered it and find it acceptable. One of the interesting aspects of this thread is finding out what people here think.

[SuperflyTNT]

What's funny is that a lot of large farms overfertilize to increase yields, which runs off into the spillways to rivers, and ends up, invariably, in the oceans. This causes a high nutrient level to cause plankton blooms of unheard of proportions. The fish, which are not able to eat that much, allow the plankton to die. The dead plankton sink, creating a HUGE nutrient population on the bottom of the oceans, which in turn creates incredible superblooms of bacteria which produces CO2 and thus you have OIL SHALE being made at the bottom of the ocean as well as killing every single living thing at the bottom 2-6 feet of the ocean floor.

So, in short, were everyone vegan the oceans would die. Irony?!?!

[dok]

Originally Posted by TOG

I'll tolerate income taxes if it leads to a balanced budget, and eventually into the black. Which in turn makes room for taxes to be cut.

OK, seems like we agree on the basics, then. The obvious point is that government needs revenue, and different revenue structures affect economic activity in different ways. You may as well pick one that shifts economic activity in a way that serves your purposes.

Originally Posted by TOG

What you are proposing is consumption based taxes, which are too some extent already in place. Your gas tax for example. Most if not all states tax each gallon of gas. So the more miles you drive, the more tax you pay. You propose paying more tax on a heavier vehicle. The tax on diesel is already higher than the tax on gas, at least in my state.

Sure, some forms of consumption taxes are already in place. I would deepen these taxes and make them more targeted on the behavior I want to discourage. For instance, sure, diesel taxes are higher in some (not all) states, but not all diesel vehicles are large, and not all heavy vehicles are diesel.

Originally Posted by TOG

What you should be really looking for is a value added tax. Taxes collected at the point of manufacture. This way everyone pays in accordance with what they're spending.

A VAT isn't simply at the point of manufacture, it's at all points where value is added. But, broadly, I agree. If a barrel of crude is imported by one company, refined by a second, shipped by a third, and distributed to consumers by a fourth, I would only suggest charging a carbon tax at the first stage.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

What's funny is that a lot of large farms overfertilize to increase yields, which runs off into the spillways to rivers, and ends up, invariably, in the oceans. This causes a high nutrient level to cause plankton blooms of unheard of proportions. The fish, which are not able to eat that much, allow the plankton to die. The dead plankton sink, creating a HUGE nutrient population on the bottom of the oceans, which in turn creates incredible superblooms of bacteria which produces CO2 and thus you have OIL SHALE being made at the bottom of the ocean as well as killing every single living thing at the bottom 2-6 feet of the ocean floor.

So, in short, were everyone vegan if we keep farming as we do now the oceans would die. Irony?!?!

Fixed.

Though the chemical fertilizers that are causing this are likely to get more expensive as both fuel costs rise and their ingredients, some of which are mined, become scarcer.

You need to get out there with your hose Superfly.