[Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - AotV Testing

[Pumpkin_King]

I think what we need to do here is first focus on something we all seem to agree on - some kind of traversal ability. Then we can focus on a potential defensive.

Options that have been thrown around for traversal:

- a combo low Move/a 2-space blink that happens before or after their normal move
- a mid-range teleport that replaces normal move entirely
- a variation on Phantom Walk

A quick idea I just had:
- a Drop-like power that happens every round/turn - roll the d20, if successful all living Stalkers can move anywhere they like

I’m also linking the two versions of Nightcrawler our friends at C3G have made - Bamf being somewhat similar of a teleport as we’re messing around with.

http://heroscapers.com/c3g/released/...wler_comic.jpg

http://heroscapers.com/c3g/released/...holme_mini.jpg

[NecroBlade]

I'm actually not entirely opposed to grey hit-zones here, but I do think conditional removal of them is more interesting as it allows counter-play.

I also still don't see anything that fits my vision of them better thematically than short Blink + move. Teleportation doesn't strike me as a more "horrifying" power because there's no tension in it: the ability to almost combat something only to have it slip away, or almost escape from something only for it to get just ahead of you around the corner is much scarier than suddenly appearing out of nowhere and there was nothing you could do about it, IMO.

A similar sort of logic applies to disappearing hit-zones, which is what gives that power set thematic consistency to me.

[Pumpkin_King]

Let it be known that’s my preference too, Blink/Move.

[flameslayer93]

I have no actual preferences for which movement type we should go with, just the note that we have to figure out how they’re supposed to be used and testing in that role.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I also still don't see anything that fits my vision of them better thematically than short Blink + move. Teleportation doesn't strike me as a more "horrifying" power because there's no tension in it: the ability to almost combat something only to have it slip away, or almost escape from something only for it to get just ahead of you around the corner is much scarier than suddenly appearing out of nowhere and there was nothing you could do about it, IMO.

Neither example for why running is more horrifying doesn't apply to a teleport as well. We can call it "Phase Shift" or the like instead of Teleport and imagine that they're still visible when moving between the dimensions, but mechanically placing them a greater distance away is more representative of horror. They can still "teleport" around the corner just before you get away, and they are much harder to predict and react to when they aren't mostly moving like every other unit. I personally think that there is more tension in not knowing where they'll strike from, or what they're capable of.

[All Your Pie]

I like the short blink+move as well. I think discussing which version of teleportation feels more "horrifying" is missing the forest for the trees. Suspense and horror aren't really relevant concepts when your opponent's movement range is a consistent and predictable threat zone. You can shoehorn in an interpretation to how different forms of teleportation work and how relatively spooky they are but it's a largely pointless exercise that isn't going to come across to most players.

A true horror concept would be giving the Phantoms variable movement that it isn't possible for the opponent to 100% predict. Something like Wild Pack Movement from the Marrden Hounds would be an example of this. "before moving, roll d20. If you roll X or higher, teleport." This would add an element of suspense to every turn, as it would mean that the threat zone of the Phantoms could be drastically different and much harder to account for (hilariously, this interpretation does cast Gilbert and the KoW as extremely suspenseful figures, but as a Nilfheim player I argue that that's 100% accurate).

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by All Your Pie

I like the short blink+move as well. I think discussing which version of teleportation feels more "horrifying" is missing the forest for the trees. Suspense and horror aren't really relevant concepts when your opponent's movement range is a consistent and predictable threat zone. You can shoehorn in an interpretation to how different forms of teleportation work and how relatively spooky they are but it's a largely pointless exercise that isn't going to come across to most players.

I disagree. The mechanics of a design should evoke the themes of the figure--I'd argue that there are distinctly "sci-fi" things that designs can do that would feel off on a fantasy figure, for example, even if reskinned. If we want to make a scary monster, then I think that it should play like one. I don't think that the horror theme and the mechanics outlined in the OP are aligned enough currently. If I'm the only one bothered, then I can shut up about it (since we've essentially been talking in circles for a while now), but I think that getting a unit to play like its theme is an essential part of the design.

Originally Posted by All Your Pie

A true horror concept would be giving the Phantoms variable movement that it isn't possible for the opponent to 100% predict. Something like Wild Pack Movement from the Marrden Hounds would be an example of this. "before moving, roll d20. If you roll X or higher, teleport." This would add an element of suspense to every turn, as it would mean that the threat zone of the Phantoms could be drastically different and much harder to account for (hilariously, this interpretation does cast Gilbert and the KoW as extremely suspenseful figures, but as a Nilfheim player I argue that that's 100% accurate).

That's a neat interpretation, and it certainly makes them more unpredictable than most of what we've discussed so far. I'd definitely be open to exploring this direction if others are interested.

(Having fought a Gilbert who averaged 5 Jandar symbols per turn one game, I'd agree that the knights can be downright horrifying, too. )

If people aren't interested in exploring variable moves, I think that this twist on the main design we've kicked around could work:

Blink
Before or after moving, you may place a SPOOKY ALIEN on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current location. SPOOKY ALIENS will not take leaving engagement attacks while using Blink.

Intangible
After a SPOOKY ALIEN rolls defense dice against a normal attack and is not destroyed, it may immediately use its Blink Special Power.

Intangible/Phased Out/the defensive power could use some adjustment (such as if we wanted to go with invisibility/removing hitzones), but I think that I could settle for this direction. It doesn't feel like it's focused on horror to me, but it at least feels distinct in them being more technologically advanced and generally feeling like aliens if they have a greater degree of control on their teleportation timing and can use it to dodge opposing attacks.

[Pumpkin_King]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Intangible/Phased Out/the defensive power could use some adjustment (such as if we wanted to go with invisibility/removing hitzones), but I think that I could settle for this direction. It doesn't feel like it's focused on horror to me, but it at least feels distinct in them being more technologically advanced and generally feeling like aliens if they have a greater degree of control on their teleportation timing and can use it to dodge opposing attacks.

Could definitely be open to this. I'd still like some form of defensive, though.

[Captain Stupendous]

Still following along here My main concern with allowing blink to trigger off of a successful defense roll/special power is that they could easily start to feel too much like the ninjas of the northern wind, especially with 4A 3D stats and a defensive ability against ranged normal attacks.

If you do decide to go this way though, what if you required them to end their move adjacent to the enemy who tried to shoot them? Maybe you could even allow them to make an unblock able attack against the attacker... Something like

PHASE SHIFT
When a SPOOKY ALIEN successfully defends against a normal attack from a non adjacent figure, you may immediately place them on any space within 6 clear sight spaces that is adjacent to the attacker. A SPOOKY ALIEN will never take leaving engagement attacks when using PHASE SHIFT. [?You may then roll one unblock able hit against the attacker?]

[Pumpkin_King]

I can see that. It discourages ranged attacks without simply giving them stealth dodge.

[NecroBlade]

I'm aware that there's a limit to what you can do in terms of gameplay to be unpredictable. But Teleportation is no more unpredictable than Blink, because anyone can read the card and figure out what spaces are currently within 10 and on the same level. Thematically, though:

You see Alien A out the corner of your eye and go to the window to get a closer look, but when you get there at first you don't see it, until you spot it already at the other end of the yard somehow. Deciding it's better to kill whatever this thing is than let it harm you, you grab a bat and plan to go outside and smite it. You open the back door, but when you do, it suddenly gets inside your house behind you. Despite your best efforts, Alien A gets to you first and you die.

Alien B beams inside your house and kills you in your sleep without you even being aware of its existence.


Intangible doesn't actually do anything for them defensively, and would at the very least need to be renamed. That said, like PK I too prefer a defensive power here. And as Captain Stupendous points out, both Intangible and Phase Shift make them feel like alternate Ninjas of the Northern Wind.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

Still following along here My main concern with allowing blink to trigger off of a successful defense roll/special power is that they could easily start to feel too much like the ninjas of the northern wind, especially with 4A 3D stats and a defensive ability against ranged normal attacks.

If you do decide to go this way though, what if you required them to end their move adjacent to the enemy who tried to shoot them? Maybe you could even allow them to make an unblock able attack against the attacker... Something like

I agree with the Ninjas of the Northern Wind comparison, which is one of the reasons that I've been wanting us to actually hammer out how these guys should be played and what the thematic playstyle is. Last time I brought it up, I seemed to be more concerned than the general consensus, but it's worth keeping in mind. I do think we're at least approaching a greater difference, though.

I like your idea. I'd drop the range restriction and just place them adjacent to an attacker after the power is fulfilled to keep it simple, whether we add the attack die or not.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I'm aware that there's a limit to what you can do in terms of gameplay to be unpredictable. But Teleportation is no more unpredictable than Blink, because anyone can read the card and figure out what spaces are currently within 10 and on the same level. Thematically, though:

You see Alien A out the corner of your eye and go to the window to get a closer look, but when you get there at first you don't see it, until you spot it already at the other end of the yard somehow. Deciding it's better to kill whatever this thing is than let it harm you, you grab a bat and plan to go outside and smite it. You open the back door, but when you do, it suddenly gets inside your house behind you. Despite your best efforts, Alien A gets to you first and you die.

Alien B beams inside your house and kills you in your sleep without you even being aware of its existence.

I disagree, but I think that it's clear at this point that neither of us is going to change our mind. I don't intend to keep restating my problems with that direction, and I'm content enough with pretending that these guys don't have a horror theme if they're able to be thematically compelling elsewhere.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Intangible doesn't actually do anything for them defensively, and would at the very least need to be renamed. That said, like PK I too prefer a defensive power here. And as Captain Stupendous points out, both Intangible and Phase Shift make them feel like alternate Ninjas of the Northern Wind.

Any name or consistent defensive power works for me. I just wanted to bring up the idea of them shifting away again, since it was somewhat obscured by talk of improving blink.

I'm glad to see that you'd prefer for them to not feel like Ninja variants now, too. I'm not a big fan of them feeling too similar, especially since there's a lot of potential for the design in general.