The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

The Colossus relies on "reverse bonding," which is pretty frowned upon. Though this doesn't feel like forcing bonding onto a weak squad, but a core part of the unit design. It would feel even moreso (and more interesting) if the Warforged Soldiers weren't allowed to attack at all, but it gets weird rules-wise trying to do a Tactical Switch without attacking.

It is a pretty cool design. I suggest Militaristic as the personality instead, but Disciplined is fine.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The Colossus relies on "reverse bonding," which is pretty frowned upon. Though this doesn't feel like forcing bonding onto a weak squad, but a core part of the unit design. It would feel even moreso (and more interesting) if the Warforged Soldiers weren't allowed to attack at all, but it gets weird rules-wise trying to do a Tactical Switch without attacking.

It is a pretty cool design. I suggest Militaristic as the personality instead, but Disciplined is fine.

Thank you for the feedback. I agree that Militaristic does fit better, considering the Warforged Titans' sole purpose for existing were to be Warmachines for the Warforged armies. So I'll make that change.

The initial design did actually prevent the Warforged Soldiers from attacking (poorly worded albeit), which was fine until they ran into unswitchable figures, at which point the Warforged Soldiers/Colossus lost all synergy and Colossus became essentially an overpriced Construct with movement bonding instead of Talingul bonding.

So, I opted for a still lesser version of bonding that helps prevent being completely hard-countered by larger or otherwise immovable units.

[wriggz]

I expect Colossus back here, so here are my thoughts. I designed a similar unit (see hilt in my customs) and choose a support unit instead of a key figure. I think making strike pulse rally the keystone is fiddly and in practice will be replaced by the straight bonding option.

- the reverse bonding seems like a finicky way of adding bonding since in practice I expect most turns will not involve a tactical switch. Most of the time board control pulse 3 attacks of 3 or 4 are just better, not to mention when playing against large figures or samurai. Opponents should be able to play against tactical strike by either engageing or attacking in waves further limiting options. I really don't see how this unit would present much choice, seems moke like rally plus strike is a neat thing when it might work rather than a core part of play.

- I can squint and see how loosing attack allows you to throw units into the Colossus but it's a stretch. It also feels weird that the Colossus would stop short of engagement to allow the soldiers a chance to activate tactical strike.

- this unit feels very meta gamey like you are obviously making up for the war forged weakness. It doesn't feel organic. I'm also not a huge fan of tying a common squad to a hero like this so overtly.

- For a hero so tied to his squade the color scheme is a theme break. I know beggers can't be choosers but even minor details matter. If the minis look jarring together baking symbiotic synergy into the design may not be the best direction.

This is an amazing mini and I think enhancing the war forged is a great pursuit but I don't think this is the best design for that goal.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by wriggz

I expect Colossus back here, so here are my thoughts. I designed a similar unit (see hilt in my customs) and choose a support unit instead of a key figure. I think making strike pulse rally the keystone is fiddly and in practice will be replaced by the straight bonding option.

- the reverse bonding seems like a finicky way of adding bonding since in practice I expect most turns will not involve a tactical switch. Most of the time board control pulse 3 attacks of 3 or 4 are just better, not to mention when playing against large figures or samurai. Opponents should be able to play against tactical strike by either engageing or attacking in waves further limiting options. I really don't see how this unit would present much choice, seems moke like rally plus strike is a neat thing when it might work rather than a core part of play.

- I can squint and see how loosing attack allows you to throw units into the Colossus but it's a stretch. It also feels weird that the Colossus would stop short of engagement to allow the soldiers a chance to activate tactical strike.

- this unit feels very meta gamey like you are obviously making up for the war forged weakness. It doesn't feel organic. I'm also not a huge fan of tying a common squad to a hero like this so overtly.

- For a hero so tied to his squade the color scheme is a theme break. I know beggers can't be choosers but even minor details matter. If the minis look jarring together baking symbiotic synergy into the design may not be the best direction.

This is an amazing mini and I think enhancing the war forged is a great pursuit but I don't think this is the best design for that goal.

Thank you for the feedback! I am planning on eliminating the straight bonding portion, although I know that does not address all of your concerns. If the updated version doesn't mostly quell the other concerns, then I imagine the unit won't have legs in the SOV process and I'll consider whether it should be re-nominated.

Funny enough, the Warforged Bodyguard was the initial mini I used for this concept and the Warforged Titan mini was a different design altogether (albeit fairly uninspired), but I ultimately combined the two as I wasn't satisfied with either. It is neat to know that I'm not the only person to have played the Warforged Soldiers and wished they had some kind of Warforged Synergy that could allow them to swap units into harm's way.

Regarding the color theme, I don't have a great rebuttal to that other than that's just how it is in D&D, where the Titans, precursors to the "modern" Warforged, are currently portrayed as bronze and the more humanoid ones seem to be portrayed as either silver or bronze. But, I understand from an aesthetic point of view why that might be a deal breaker.

[wriggz]

Please, please don't redesign for judges. Have a vision, fight for and refine your vision.

The fact we both saw a design space for switch plus engagement strike means there is likely meat there, Im just pushing you to seek out the best cut you know?

Sadly the only advice I have is not to tie the soldiers to the hero as strongly, which might not be great advice. It is worth mentioning you don't need any turn bonding to give a reason to draft both. A big special attacker that has a aura boost to war forged that has engagement strike might be enough reason to move up the big guy and switch to common warforged to get both the attack and the engagement strike on the soldiers turn. I see om juggling as a feature not a bug.

[Shiftrex]

Exactly. The process takes quite a while and judges sometimes change their mind.... or judges flat out change.

My stuff when in like 3 years ago. I'm expecting some different perspectives than the first few times I submitted it.

You have something you think is good enough, so stick with it and wait for the votes.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Please, please don't redesign for judges. Have a vision, fight for and refine your vision.

The fact we both saw a design space for switch plus engagement strike means there is likely meat there, Im just pushing you to seek out the best cut you know?

Sadly the only advice I have is not to tie the soldiers to the hero as strongly, which might not be great advice.

Oh for sure, my initial concept also restricted attacking, so it feels like a return to the design's roots rather than a change of what I want. I think after submitting for SOV I did a bit more self-reflection on whether I felt the unit was the best version of itself, and the answer I decided was no.

I think I have an idea of how to fulfill the symbiotic relationship between the two and the playstyle I envision without the Warforged Soldier's simply becoming an extension of Colossus, but I need to run some tests to see if it works as smoothly before getting additional thoughts.

I really do appreciate the feedback though and I'd love your further thoughts when I'm ready to post in the workshop again!

[SkyWhale]

I think an issue I keep coming back to with the Colossus is that it seems to take one of the most interesting things about the Warforged (the ability to switch into attacks from height) and buries it under a D20-reliant ability. I'm not convinced they need a support unit, but if they did I'd want it to make their Tactical Switch even more interesting rather than essentially replacing its usefulness.

[Scytale]

Really, I don't think you need to give the Warforged Soldiers a turn to do what you want. If you just give them movements instead, there's value in alternating order markers between Colossus and the Soldiers to make use of Tactical Strike.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Curt

Funny enough, the Warforged Bodyguard was the initial mini I used for this concept and the Warforged Titan mini was a different design altogether (albeit fairly uninspired), but I ultimately combined the two as I wasn't satisfied with either. It is neat to know that I'm not the only person to have played the Warforged Soldiers and wished they had some kind of Warforged Synergy that could allow them to swap units into harm's way.

Regarding the color theme, I don't have a great rebuttal to that other than that's just how it is in D&D, where the Titans, precursors to the "modern" Warforged, are currently portrayed as bronze and the more humanoid ones seem to be portrayed as either silver or bronze. But, I understand from an aesthetic point of view why that might be a deal breaker.

I got the mini, and it's awesome. Might have some denial issues, but it's a sweet mini.

Doesn't really scream "warforged" to me, or even whisper it. Not your fault, obviously, but I think it opens things up. I think it would be great as an Arctorian clockwork construct that fights for Einar. Personally it feels to me like the desire to tie this design to the Warforged Soldiers is holding back its potential.

[wriggz]

And don't just take my word for it, but with C3V so expansive and AoA on the horizon digging up synergy to classic units id not as exciting as it might have been years ago.

Creating new units that stand on their own is much more in keeping with the spirit of Heroscape rather then creating synergy webs.

[Blue Trails]

Just to offer an opposing perspective here, while I agree that Colossus would still be interesting without direct Warforged Soldier synergy, Warforged Titans have looked exactly like Colossus since 3rd edition D&D, and it would be difficult for me to accept the sculpt as anything else. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, though, as I'm not a judge.