Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Yes but you should understand that refuse him for being swingy whereas the last figure who got accepted is brimstone is hard to swallow.

I'm probably not going to make myself popular with this statement, but I do agree with Foudzing, and have noticed this sort of thing before. The SoV have, in my experience, been extremely inconsistent with the sorts of thing they will and will not allow, and has often, in my opinion, been too demanding with their 'only the best' approach - I almost get the feeling that with that they feel that a custom figure needs to be better than an official figure to be considered 'official'. Also, I remember seeing one judge vote Nay to reviewing Pavin Nahz because he 'didn't fit his playstyle'. If you guys are going to turn down units on that basis, then this is going to stat feeling a lot more like an exclusive collection of a few figures you personally like than a project to actually expand the game.

I don't mean to be disrespectful at all - you guys put a lot of work into this and respect that, and I may well be missing something. This is just how it seems from where I stand and I feel it needs to be said.

[Kinseth]

Swingy figures are apart of heroscape. From the Frenzy figures like Vipers/Archers to Cyprien.

It does seem a little far-fetched to turn down a figure based on it being Swingy(If it is a balanced "Swingy" figure. Being Swingy to an extreme is a bad thing.). Aslo the judges should work together to standardize their criteria. Each judge having his own makes it a total crap shoot.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Yes but you should understand that refuse him for being swingy whereas the last figure who got accepted is brimstone is hard to swallow.

superfrog apparently felt that Kheris took his swinginess to an extreme beyond Brimstone.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Also, I remember seeing one judge vote Nay to reviewing Pavin Nahz because he 'didn't fit his playstyle'. If you guys are going to turn down units on that basis, then this is going to stat feeling a lot more like an exclusive collection of a few figures you personally like than a project to actually expand the game.

I'm sorry, but you saw wrong. I just did a search for posts mentioning Pavin Nahz and could not find anything like that. You are welcome to find it and prove me wrong if you can.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Swingy figures are apart of heroscape. From the Frenzy figures like Vipers/Archers to Cyprien.

It does seem a little far-fetched to turn down a figure based on it being Swingy(If it is a balanced "Swingy" figure. Being Swingy to an extreme is a bad thing.).

See above.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Aslo the judges should work together to standardize their criteria. Each judge having his own makes it a total crap shoot.

We use the same criteria. There is some variance within that criteria, but that is why we use the aggregate votes that we do. It is easier for a unit to get disapproved than approved, but that is as it should be. Once a unit is approved, that is irreversible, but a unit that has been rejected can always be polished or changed and resubmitted.

As Dad_scaper once said, the SoV is, appropriately, a very conservative institution.

[1Mmirg]

I'm glad to see that the SoV remains careful and selective. I'm glad that it represents a variety of views and playstyles.

There are many excellent customs that we can all use, as we wish, but the SoV remains committed to trying to only find the best. I'm grateful for that.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

I'm glad to see that the SoV remains careful and selective. I'm glad that it represents a variety of views and playstyles.

There are many excellent customs that we can all use, as we wish, but the SoV remains committed to trying to only find the best. I'm grateful for that.

I don't think that has ever been questioned.

[1Mmirg]

It also means that I'm happy to see some units that I like (in some case quite a bit) *not* make it into the SoV, since it also means that I can trust the SoV to not pass units into its ranks that don't truly deserve to be there.

I can play with any excellent unit that I see come through the SoV process--any unit that fits my style and interests. The simple fact that units get highlighted here is a significant benefit to the community.

I'm glad the ones actually admitted tend to be those that appeal to the broadest range of Scapers. I think the diversity of judges and views among the judges is one of the SoV's greatest assets.

[Scytale]

I appreciate the openness and concern being expressed here. This sort of feedback is valuable to the health and future of the SoV.

A certain level of inconsistency is a compromise we decided to make. Originally, the SoV was designed such that all Judges reviewed all units. While this system does not guarantee each individual member is consistent, the overall judging will be consistent since it's the same constant set of Judges.

Some time ago the SoV chose to expand the total number of Judges and assign different Judges to different units. This was a necessary change to address the SoV's biggest problem, the amount of time it takes units to get through the system. An unfortunate side effect of this is that having a different sets of Judges for different units naturally incurs inconsistency.

There was a suggestion that Judges should use a standardized set of criteria. This wouldn't be a good idea, even if such a thing was possible. If a mechanical set of rules could be used, we wouldn't need judges in the first place. But more importantly, such rules would have to be strict, downright restrictive, to ensure no problematic units slip through. Heroscape is a broad game with a lot of possibilities and potential; strict judging rules would unnecessarily restrict the types of units that would be able to pass through the system. Additionally, the system brings out the individual skills of each Judge, as we have the freedom to approach judging in the ways each of us is best suited for.

Please realize that the current system is able to absorb some inconsistency: units are allowed to pass even if a Judge votes against it. Two failing votes means that either a unit is far enough off the mark in some way that multiple Judges agree on that assessment, or the unit has multiple issues that Judges may disagree with. Even if a particular Judge is overly critical about a certain aspect, if the unit is excellent it will pass despite that Judge's vote.

In Kheris's case, I was borderline but voted Yea, caps was borderline and voted Nay, and superfrog found something he didn't like. I think it's clear that Kheris wasn't tanked by a rouge Judge's call; while it is a good custom, it was struggling with SoV judging.

As for the critique that SoV is more restrictive than even official Heroscape, that's probably true. SoV is conservative, which means we're unlikely to pass units that will profoundly affect the metagame as seriously as, say, the Deathreavers did. I don't expect units like that to be submitted here though. More directly, we are not easily accepting of units that push the established boundaries of the game, or would require numerous FAQ entries to handle all of the corner cases. We also strive for excellence, not acceptability. There are a huge number of playable customs on this site that could be considered acceptable. We aren't looking for those, we are looking for the best of the best. This is a founding principle of the SoV.

[Lazy Orang]

Sorry, I got it wrong. I meant Pygar Fasir. Here is the post.

Out of interest, why are you so against units that affect the metagame, but are really good but not the best of the best? That's what we were getting before with official 'Scape anyway. Grated, I wouldn't want t see another Q9 or Hatamoto Taro, but I wouldn't mind another Cyprien or DW 9,000.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Out of interest, why are you so against units that affect the metagame, but are really good but not the best of the best?

That's really two questions.

The first, why are we against units that affect the metagame? We're not. I'd be happy to see a competitive unit come through here. But we definitely don't want to ruin the metagame. Anything that would drastically affect the metagame (say, making melee armies unplayable) would likely not be passed.

Second, why do we want units that are not the best of the best? The concept behind the SoV was to induct the very best of this site's many customs into "official" 'Scape. If it's not the best of the best, it won't get inducted, regardless of how it would affect the metagame.

[Lazy Orang]

Of course I wouldn't want a unit that affected the metagame so much as to make other units unusable - for example, I think you guys made the right call with Gor'Vath. Out of curiosity, would you have passed Cyprien if he were nominated for the SoV?

I think much of this seems to depend on design philosophy - you guys are more conservative whereas I'm much more liberal. I like mixing Classic and C3G, like weirder powers and units, like 4 power cards, and have recently decided to start using non-approved customs.

Do you see my point about nyys voting Nay to Pygar Fasir because he didn't fit his playstyle, though? Opinion's one thing - design preference is another.

[Kinseth]

From the Standpoint as one of the Heroscape Online Organizers, We have to justify using VC(SoV/C3V) figures to our playerbase. Having had over 150 players participate in our events, we certainly only want the best of the best of VC to be passed. While the majority of our playerbase now accepts VC with our tournaments, it only takes one figure to ruin the image of VC.

I am all for a rigorous testing period, and only accepting the best of the best.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Out of curiosity, would you have passed Cyprien if he were nominated for the SoV?

Hmm, tough one. Probably yes. While Cyprien can certainly be a powerhouse, he isn't an unbeatable monster. In terms of theme and gameplay he's fantastic. The questions would have been about his relatively low price and how annoying (that is, unfun) run-away-capable figures can be to play against.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Do you see my point about nyys voting Nay to Pygar Fasir because he didn't fit his playstyle, though? Opinion's one thing - design preference is another.

nyys's post wasn't clear that playstyle dislike was his reason, it was more of an unclear dislike. I agree with you that we Judges should be looking at units from the perspective of impartial viewers and not merely picking the things we personally like. It's something we try to be vigilant about. But between the two isn't a fine line, it's a big grey area. After all, aside from pointing out mistakes, judging is all about preference. I know I personally struggle differentiating the two, and struggle even more with deciding how much my own personal feelings can/should be involved. It's a tough job, and not just because we have to spend countless hours playtesting the same units again and again.