DFW Tournaments - Restricted List

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by AnubianWolf88

CheddarLimbo, I think that the reason we didn't see a Grut Army was because of the restricted list, period. Last year, DrL led me to believe he and Bro-in-law would bring (although he didn't) a Grut conglomeration, with Grimnak, Nerak, and Tornak at its core, with Heavy Gruts and Blade Gruts making up the bread and butter.

I was going to bring it this year, considering how hard I had to work to counter it in playtesting last year. The restricted list ended that thought before it ever got started.

Dignan has indicated that the restricted list would be applied to "some events." Which ones? Because I am generally against restrictions on figures, except on those occasions when it's done just for a wrinkle in the rules, i.e. for fun. Heck, I won the team tournament with GladDragon, but I wouldn't want those same restrictions for all team events. I just figured that was a tweak to make things interesting.

I'd rather see unlimited start zone sizes or glyph pool hijinks - (How about 3 random Treasure glyphs in the start zone) - used to alter the units involved in a tourney.

~AW88

To answer your question about which events are likely to use this list in our area, the Richardson Open and Team Tournaments are slated to use it.

The Richardson Open will use it as its only wrinkle. The event will be an otherwise straight up 1v1 event with a focus on new maps. Future team tournaments are likely to use this list but revert back to more traditional start zones. While I understand the concern from those not enjoying the list, the team tournament armies had devolved a little too much for many people's taste.

There was a general sentiment against keeping things vanilla in the team event. Some builds had become dominant and a bit of a bear to play against. Hence, two events ago, we came up with the caddy corner style to combat this. Then I pushed it up a bit to the restricted list this year.

After the event this year, I gathered that the restricted list would work well in a more traditional start zone team event. The caddy corner maps had some serious downsides that I'm not all together happy with. I did my best to mitigate them, but the fact remained that they had a significant impact on army performance that is not all together desirable.

If I were to run the team event next year, I think I'd be inclined to run it "side by side" teams with a restricted list. But, I will defer to the majority if there is an uproar against that idea. Again, the list could be modified from it's existing state to better fit the needs of the team event. If there are specific units that people feel should be allowed in team events, let's discuss them.

[Dignan]

Well, we just finished our second traditional style tournament using the restricted list. I've been very happy with the diversity in armies that we've seen at the events. Here is some data from the two events.

2010 Top 5

1. Fencer Jared - 4x 10th Regiment, Brunak, and Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
2. Dignan - Phantom Knight x3, 10th Reg x 3, and Theracus
3. DrLivingston (tie) - Granite Guardians x3, RotV Raelin, and Syvarris
4. Rÿchean - Romans, Morgrim, MDG
5. GunsMahoney - Spidersx4?, Wyvernx2, Drow Chick hero

2011 Top 5

1. Rÿchean - Vipersx6?, Mittens, Fen Hydra
2. Dignan - Warforgedx3, Ashigaurx3, Raelin
3. DrLivingston - Steamroller
4. Podwest - Minnionsx4, Raelin
5. Lord Trask - Dividersx4?, Raelin, Eltahale

I can't recall all the armies from two years ago, but I don't recall any rats. I also don't think we saw Q9 (but I can't be sure). I know that we didn't see either this year. And, we saw no stingers this year as well.

Overall, I think that the list has done well in the two years we've used it. It feels like more armies are "on the table" when you are preparing for the event because not everything in the army can be "optimal".

At this event there was some discussion of taking Kaemon Awa off the list (we've talked about it before). I think that he can off the list. Unless I hear a bunch of uproar against it, I'll likely take him off the list before we use this again.

[lefton4ya]

You can't have heavy Gruts and Grimnak?
you can't have Knights and Sir Glibert?
You can't gave Greenscales and Dragons?

No one will ever bring any Grimnak, Sir Glibert, or GSW if they can't bring their peers. Anyway, not my tourney.

[Robotunit197]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

You can't have heavy Gruts and Grimnak?
you can't have Knights and Sir Glibert?
You can't gave Greenscales and Dragons?

No one will ever bring any Grimnak, Sir Glibert, or GSW if they can't bring their peers. Anyway, not my tourney.

I just used Gilbert and Macdirks at a tourny...

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

You can't have heavy Gruts and Grimnak?
you can't have Knights and Sir Glibert?
You can't gave Greenscales and Dragons?

No one will ever bring any Grimnak, Sir Glibert, or GSW if they can't bring their peers. Anyway, not my tourney.

Well, Grimnak still works well with Blade Gruts (MM won lightweight at GenCon with them). They prove to be strong in certain point totals. Greenscales paired with Charos, Moltenclaw, and Mimring have still shown up.

Gilbert is really the only figure on the list that gets effectively banned. It's up for debate whether he should be on the list. I can see an argument for taking him off.

Second is the Airborne Elite. I know these guys were a lot more popular back in the early days, but Unique Squads have the biggest hill to climb already in terms of functionality. They are swingy, and have a very good chance of just falling flat (or never showing up at all). I think they are fairly valued at 110, and again, don't have any really superior combinations to take advantage of.

The reason they are on the list is due to their effectiveness in rat screen armies. Their range and attack power is very strong when you can't get at them. In DFW we haven't seen someone play them in that manner, but it's fairly common at GenCon. It was sort of a preemptive strike to put them on the list.

I agree with Tmac that Laglor, MArro Warriors, and Fenn Hydra are fine off the list.

As do I (hence why I didn't add them). I don't see a reason to put them up there.

I have to say-this one surprised me. Have they already had such a strong impact on the DFW metagame?

Mezzo's have gotten a reputation around here lately of being a bit strong. It depends greatly on the maps you use, but they are a menace on some. To Rev's point, their impact might be felt much more in team games than in one v one matches. We might explore a team list as well.

[Revdyer]

Eight or ten Mezzodemons as half of the team build were just brutal to face with three 4th Massachusetts Line (and Samuel Brown); I'll tell you that.

[Dad_Scaper]

As a non-DFW Tournament Director, I want to thank you DFW fellers for creating & contributing to this thread. I'll definitely be monitoring it for use at my own events.

Many thanks, guys, new and fun formats are key to competitive Scape, and competitive Scape is key to the life of Scape.

[dok]

I think Mezzos on this list is a bit of an overreach. They are definitely a strong, competitive squad, but a lot of their perceived dominance is due to the psychological impact of not killing them for an extended period in a game. If you do the math out, it's pretty clear that they lose point-for-point against most competitive squads. 2 attacks of 4 is good, but it's not as good as more attacks.

I think the Hydra probably belongs on the restricted list, although most of the better figures to pair the Hydra with are also on there. Kelda, Cutters, and PKs are all in play, though.

I can see leaving the Marro Warriors off, but if I were leaving them off I would leave off Isamu for essentially the same reason.

I agree with leaving Laglor off; he's good but a bit overrated in my mind.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by dok

I think Mezzos on this list is a bit of an overreach. They are definitely a strong, competitive squad, but a lot of their perceived dominance is due to the psychological impact of not killing them for an extended period in a game. If you do the math out, it's pretty clear that they lose point-for-point against most competitive squads. 2 attacks of 4 is good, but it's not as good as more attacks.

This is very possible. We play in a bit of a vacuum down here. Most of the active players know each other and play quite a bit together. As we test different builds, we get a bit of group think going on. Mezzos did annoyingly well in much of our testing for the event.

The last two events we had down here are not your typical one on one formats. They also featured very different maps and deployment zones. In both events, the Mezzos felt very strong. After this event several of us felt like adding them to the list was a given. But that could be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. We'll have to discus it some more.

I can see leaving the Marro Warriors off, but if I were leaving them off I would leave off Isamu for essentially the same reason.

Isamu is on the list due in part because of his crazy value at 10 points and in part because we are sick of seeing him in 50% of the builds. Marros, while a great value at 50, tend to get used less down here because of the start zone spaces they take up. Really, Rÿchean is the only one who fields them all the time.

I agree with leaving Laglor off; he's good but a bit overrated in my mind.

Agreed. It Laglor feels like a hold over from earlier tournament days when maps didn't feature as much LOS blocking as they do today.

[kolakoski]

Originally Posted by Dignan

Implementation: Armies at events using the restricted list can field, at most, one army card from the list as a part of their total army. Multiple commons from the list can be used.


THE LIST

1. Deathreavers
2. Raelin - RotV
3. 4th Massachusetts Line
4. Blastatrons
5. Isamu
6. Knights of Weston
7. Krav Maga Agents
8. Marro Stingers
9. Major Q9
10. Sir Gilbert
11. 10th Regiment of Foot
12. Airborne Elite
13. Braxas
14. Heavy Gruts
15. Grimnak
16. Kaemon Awa
17. Major Q10
18. Marcu Esinwien
19. Nilfhiem
20. Zelrig
21. Greenscale Warriors
22. Mezzodemon Warmongers

Well met!

I was surprised by the Wamongers inclusion, too. Brutes/Goblins are stronger, I'd say.

[Dad_Scaper]

Kolakoski (and dok), as I understand the purpose of this list it's a regional thing. Your NYC metagame may be experiencing something different from what they have going on in Texas.

The goal as I see it is to increase variety, not to force people to make second rate armies.

Your personal opinions about what's strong are therefore interesting but of limited consequence.

I know in my local area Stingers have never won a tournament that I can remember, but it seems like there are always a million of them, so I might, in my area, clip their wings. Not because I'm afraid of them, but because I get tired of seeing them.

[kolakoski]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Kolakoski

The goal as I see it is to increase variety, not to force people to make second rate armies.*

Your personal opinions about what's strong are therefore interesting but of limited consequence.**

Well met!

*I did not mean to imply it was.

**Clearly, based on how they're treated .

Perhaps after I retire, and/or am not so active a Karateka (in 10-20 yrs.), I'll come out for a DFW affair. Then I could try . . .

140 Phantom Knights x 2
120 Kaemon
120 Tagawa Samurai or Hydra
100 Griffin
500