Just_a_Bill's Customs — latest: Ru-Wa-Na (Marro behemoth)

[Just_a_Bill]

Thanks for the encouragement!

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

I'm a little thrown off by your mentioning that their limit is 8/8/4/4... is 4 the limit of markers they can receive? It doesn't say there's a limit anywhere on the Army Card.

The limit is naturally occurring rather than explicitly stated (which is part of why I like this design). You only add another Energy Flow marker when the number of EF markers you already have equals the number of the order marker you're currently revealing on the card. Since your highest OM is a 3, you can never get more than 4 Energy Flow markers.

Here it is broken out:

1. You reveal the "X" to start the boot sequence and place the first EF marker (Cybercops are 2/2/1/1).
2. Later you reveal your OM #1 on that card. Since you already have 1 EF marker and 1=1, you get to place a second EF marker (now they're 4/4/2/2).
3. On a later round you reveal OM #2 on that card. 2=2 and thus you place a third marker (now they're 6/6/3/3).
4. Yet another round, reveal OM #3. 3=3. Place the fourth and final marker (maxed at 8/8/4/4).
5. At this point you're done, because you don't have an OM with a 4 on it.

Story-wise, this represents the technicians or attendants managing the bootup process very precisely through three sequenced phases. From a gameplay perspective, it's designed to make the power-up (a) slow and (b) fairly predictable by your opponent. When you draft these guys you know you're probably going to be powering them up under fire, and they're not gonna be worth a crap for a few rounds.

[TheAverageFan]

Ah I see. I missed the fact that the "X" Order Marker activation can only be used if there aren't any markers on the card. I thought they'd be able to do it every round.

Very complex, but I think I understand now.

~TAF

[Just_a_Bill]

I've revised the game text and card image. Today I realized my brain hadn't caught up to where my text actually was, and the boot sequence was getting to 4/4/2/2 too quickly. (For example, you were never really forced to take a turn with these guys when they were at 2/2/1/1, and that was a design error on my part.) So I've fixed that, slowed down the progression, and eliminated the overhead of the "X" marker.

SYSTEM INITIALIZATION SEQUENCE
At the end of each round, if the number of revealed, numbered order markers on this card equals the number of Energy Flow Markers on this card (even if there are zero of each), you may place one Energy Flow Marker on this card. Each Energy Flow Marker on this card adds 2 to the Cybercops’ Move and Range values and adds 1 to their Attack and Defense values.

I believe there's still some room for OM management, and it may even be better in the revised version. Now you should have a better sense of having to "waste" OMs on at least one early boot stage, it will be less fiddly, and the Cops will remain vulnerable longer (now they won't get to enjoy being 4/4/2/2 until the start of round 3, and they'll have to burn up two OMs in that state if they want to reach 6/6/3/3). That early vulnerability is really crucial to the design, as an offset to the fact that they are otherwise undercosted.

Also, Aldin has rightly opined in the Help With Wordz thread that these guys are way too cheap. Part of that owes to my own incompetence in releasing a too-fast version of their text, but also I started them low on purpose and hope there will be some discussion here about pricing.

[ollie]

Fun design.

Cybercops: 60
Rats x4: 160
High-cost, low hex heroes to taste: X
Total: 220+Xpts, 20+ hexes

is very tempting for these guys. Unless the opponent has some dedicated anti-rat units or at least an assassin or two that can sidestep them, then you're looking at a game-winning squad.

And, playing Rats x4 is a well-known friend-winning strategy, so nothing can possibly go wrong.

[Tornado]

Besides me 'accidentally' spilling my drink on your cards before forfeiting the game.

[Just_a_Bill]

Thanks to a review by @Dad_Scaper , I'm pretty happy with the text now:

SYSTEM INITIALIZATION SEQUENCE
At the end of each round, if the number of revealed, numbered order markers on this card equals the number of Energy Flow Markers on this card, you may place one Energy Flow Marker on this card. Each Energy Flow Marker on this card adds 2 to the Cybercops' Move and Range values and adds 1 to their Attack and Defense values.

SELF-CORRECTIVE RESET
When a Cybercop receives one or more wounds, you may remove 1 Energy Flow Marker from this card to ignore all wounds.

So who wants to make a case for where their draft cost should really be? (Keep in mind that this latest revision slows down their boot-up, keeps them vulnerable longer, and requires more OMs to get to full activation.)

[Aldin]

So my gut says that these guys aren't fun the way they're written. While an 8/8/4/4 four-man unique squad for 60 points is ridiculously cheap, the sunk cost of six OMs to get there is brutal and encourages the worst kind of turtling. My recipe for success with this squad is Raelin, Rats and trying not to engage with those first six OMs - trying to get away with essentially burning three entire rounds positioning Raelin and Rats. At that point, they're pretty deadly.

High Risk/High Reward is fun. High Risk/High Reward that benefits from excellent play is even better. High Risk/High Reward that encourages throwing up a defensive wall and hiding behind it... not fun.

What if you mixed up initialization and reset a bit:

Initialization
At the end of the round, if there are less than three Energy Flow Markers on this card, add an Energy Flow Marker.

Reset
When a Cybercop receives one or more wounds, roll a 20-sided die and subtract the number of Energy Flow Markers on this card. On a result of 13+, ignore all damage and add an Energy Flow Marker to this card.

~Aldin, spitballing it

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

Very bizarre yet intriguing unit. I'm a little thrown off by your mentioning that their limit is 8/8/4/4... is 4 the limit of markers they can receive? It doesn't say there's a limit anywhere on the Army Card.

Still, very unique unit. Mighty swingy I imagine.

~TAF

Because 3 (+1) is the total number of OM's that are revealed (1,2,3, X is not revealed).
Edit-wow I was up way too late last night and I didn't even load up the second page. I just assumed yours was the last response. *bangs head against desk*

[Just_a_Bill]

First, @Aldin , thanks very much for taking the time to critique the unit. I very much appreciate that and hope we can duke it out a little to see where this can be improved.

Originally Posted by Aldin

Initialization
At the end of the round, if there are less than three Energy Flow Markers on this card, add an Energy Flow Marker.

Reset
When a Cybercop receives one or more wounds, roll a 20-sided die and subtract the number of Energy Flow Markers on this card. On a result of 13+, ignore all damage and add an Energy Flow Marker to this card.

I might need you to explain this to me. It seems to me you are giving Raelin and the Rats six extra OMs to get themselves in place, and/or to fire your support units who are protecting that wall, since this makes Cybercop bootup free. (This will of course make them a lot more expensive.)

The whole point of this design is that they have to waste OMs getting themselves built up, which lets the opponent advance. (Your redesign removes that core entirely.) Every OM they use up is an OM that can't be spent positioning or supporting a wall. There will be two entire rounds where the Cybercop player has only one OM to spend on anything besides the Cops during that entire two-round period. This should be a great time for the opponent to snipe Raelin from range and/or get his special attackers into position on the Rats.

Thematically this confuses me, too. The Cybercops get more power by being wounded, but the stronger they are the less likely this is to happen? I think I see where you're going mechanically, but I want a natural flow of theme here, too.

And I'm definitely not crazy about the fact that on a (very) lucky rolling streak they could get to 10/10/5/5 or higher. With a hot d20, the point could come where the opponent can't hardly get wounds on them at all, and a threat range of 20+ on some maps could be effectively infinite.

I do want to understand what you're getting at, and again I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts. I'm just not quite grasping how letting the Cops build up for free is making the wall situation better rather than worse. (And it's making them into a different unit than the design concept, which is to trade draft points for OMs.) What am I missing?

[Aldin]

Well, they would only build to a 6/6/3/3 without getting hit. Makes both the decision to try to protect them and your opponent's decision on whether or not to try to hit them before they're powered up interesting. A 4 member unique ranged squad at 6/6/3/3 for 60 points is a pretty good, but not spectacular deal.

They're weak early, but an opponent attacking them potentially makes them stronger faster. Are they worth extending yourself to try to hit them before they're strong? And does the owner leave them in the rear - or try to advance them earlier - daring the opponent to attack and potentially boost them? How effective are they as glyph holders?

Worrying about a potential 10/10/5/5 is a little like worrying about Runa's potential to win a game with a single set of d20 rolls. Can it happen? Yes. Is it likely? No. When it does will it make for a great story about the Cybercop that thought it was a Deathwalker? Probably.

So, issues:

Turtling: There's not a lot of advantage since it only gains you a 6/6/3/3 squad after three rounds which is decent but not amazing for 60 points.

Overleveling: Possible, but not likely to be a huge issue in actual play. Easily tunable by adjusting the d20 threshold up or down to find balance.

Thematically: Nanite repair/energize protocols that try to "learn"? You're correct that this doesn't force giving up early board position. Ultimately, the theme will either match what you want or it won't. You might consider that the clear solution to giving up early board position is throwing up a wall though. Not sure how to promote the one without suggesting the other.

I wasn't really trying to change your design, I simply hate critiquing something with out offering at least one possible avenue for consideration.

~Aldin, also thinking that you could do things like make auras and/or adjacent figures interfere with the charging to make turtling more difficult

[Ixe]

Devoros the Shade King
Taking over a common squad is a bit tricky, thematically. Unique Squads have precedence with Ne-Gok-Sa and even stealing a common hero is justified by taking the adjacent figure and one army card (although which one as far as order markers are concerned is still a question). The Common Squad raises the question of order markers as well as which ones to take but I guess it could work. The choice involved makes it potentially powerful if you steal figures that are on glyphs or in various key positions. For the most part I think I'd rather focus on trading Davros for more expensive targets. Single copies of a common or hero are not necessarily worth 100 points from Devoros. Warrior King otherwise supplements the Shades of Bleakewoode nicely.

Agent Borrciga
Water Suit is a tricky trade-off since water spaces tend to be lower than land spaces, meaning you take a bonus to defense at the expense of giving your opponent a bonus to attack and losing that attack bonus yourself. More often than not I feel it's better to keep the high ground but 3 extra defense dice gives me pause on that side, especially when she is so fragile. Stealth Armor helps her a little on that front but those types of powers end up being pretty swingy on unique figures. Commons allow you to have enough of rolls throughout a game that things will tend to average out but uniques can either perform amazingly with unpassable defenses or die in the first couple of attacks. Coordinated fire encourages her to be an Order Marker sink which is risky because of her fragility. Access to the combined attack would tempt me to relegate her to the start zone in many matches.

Cybercops
These guys are interesting and potentially devastating but they take quite the commitment to get charged up. They can be quite potent if you get a few charges on them (after at least a few rounds) and you will probably want to hang them back so you don't waste energy keeping them alive. Around the time you want to start using them is when you really would start putting order markers on them in the first place. They are also cheap enough that you could rely on your main army to do most of the fighting in the beginning and then really switch gears to blasting away with them once they are charged up. I don't think you could just slot them anywhere but I think they can be deadly in the right scenarios. I somewhat disagree with them being soulborg but I guess future earth could potentially develop a similar technology.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by Aldin

I wasn't really trying to change your design, I simply hate critiquing something with out offering at least one possible avenue for consideration.

Understood and appreciated. All constructive criticism is a good thing, and it's possible I'm being a little too stubborn about trying to keep the core concept afloat. But I at least want to try. I definitely don't want turtling to be the order of the day, although in my house we don't play that cutthroat (and this unit isn't intended as a VC candidate). Still, I do want to temper any abusability, hopefully in a way that doesn't get too far from the original mechanical idea that's driving this design.

I've been thinking about what you said here:

Originally Posted by Aldin

you could do things like make auras and/or adjacent figures interfere with the charging to make turtling more difficult

Couple of ideas. The first one is a bit meh, but there's something I quite like about the second, both mechanically and thematically. I wouldn't necessarily do both together, but here are the two separate ideas in context:

SYSTEM INITIALIZATION SEQUENCE
At the end of each round, if the number of revealed, numbered order markers on this card equals the number of Energy Flow Markers on this card, and all of your numbered order markers on on figures who follow Einar, you may place one Energy Flow Marker on this card. Each Energy Flow Marker on this card adds 2 to the Cybercops’ Move and Range values and adds 1 to their Attack and Defense values.

SELF-CORRECTIVE RESET
When a Cybercop receives one or more wounds, you may remove 1 Energy Flow Marker from this card to ignore all wounds.

MORALITY DIRECTIVE
Each Cybercop must end its movement within line of sight of a figure who follows Utgar or Valkrill if possible, and must attack a figure who follows Utgar or Valkrill if possible. Engaged Cybercops may target and attack non-adjacent figures who follow Utgar or Valkrill.

The first change is an experimental anti-aura thing that tries to be at least a little subtle about it. It doesn't stop passive auras from actually working, of course, but it does mean that any time you put an OM on a figure like Raelin, you lose out on the Energy Flow Marker for that entire round. Anyway, it would be pretty counterproductive to draft any non-Einar units that you might need to use in the early to mid game (or even the late game if it turns out that the Cybercops need to recover from resets).

Morality Directive is of course mostly an anti-power. The ability/requirement to disregard engagement when firing at "evil" figures can be a blessing or a curse, and the opponent can try to control the Cybercops' movement and attacks by dangling the right bait. Mandatory targeting of morally negative targets is fairly thematic to the Robocop-y story, and can be another way to temper the deliberate undercosting of the unit (wherever the final price ends up). Anyway, it should cause Rat-focused builds to tear themselves up naturally, especially since rats can't Scatter from friendly fire.