Politics, Religion, and Morality

[caps]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

You know, god can't possibly know all the choices I can make because that number is infinite.

I don't see how that follows... ?

[Dysole]

I have to agree I don't see how this follows. How do we know what God's limits of knowledge are or aren't? I certainly don't.

I think it is entirely possible he chooses to limit his omniscience and one can make a Biblical case for this view point. I guess all I can really say for certain when it comes to God is he gave us free will, he can do whatever he chooses to do, and can know whatever he chooses to know. Do I think he can be omniscient in the sense most people use? Yes, because again I won't propose to know how the logic of omniscience works. Within my brain I can't make it fit perfectly but I am limited by my own knowledge. So there's that I guess. Anywho...

~Dysole, enjoying the rabbit trails we get ourselves onto

[Anonymous]

Ranior, I think one aspect of the Christian faith that addresses some of the issues you raise is sin. Yes, God creates you a certain way. Yes, he designs you. Yes, he created the world.

However, Biblically, sin and the Fall affect Creation. Paul writes that Creation "groans" as a result of sin. Sin changed nature. It changed some of the inputs we respond to. Sin also changes our nature and who we are. It changes our desires and corrupts us. We no longer act the way God designed us to act.

So, while God created you and I a certain way, our sin corrupts us and how we and those around us make choices. Sin has also affected nature. So, in some ways, we aren't exactly how God created us to be, and the "inputs" (nature, other people) aren't exactly how they are supposed to be either.

We still have the problem of God allowing us to act a certain way and allowing sin to exist in the first place.

Which I think leads to the second point, which I believe has been brought up elsewhere. If we view God's omnipotence as limited by his moral character, I think it resolves some of the issues. Yes, God could have stopped Eve in the garden from sinning, but it may be the case that doing so would have violated God's character. I know you've heard the "Love isn't love without a free choice." argument before, so I won't repeat it.

I doubt this addresses all of the mental hurdles, but I do think it creates a crack in the "God created the whole game board and all the pieces, and therefore is responsible for my actions." argument.

And like you said it's a difference in definition in terms of omnipotence.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

The most effective humans are the ones that can anticipate the future and react in a manner that creates the best possible past/memories for themselves, given the situation.

That is both eloquent and intricate and certainly describes humanity from an atheistic perspective. I think there is a problem there that "effective" humans and "good" humans would not necessarily be the same. in fact, in many ways you could make an argument that using this statement, many of the most effective humans would be the least good.

Originally Posted by Ranior

The book analogy is great, but you continue to miss my point or just don't understand. Even saying that God is outside time doesn't change the basics. He created us, and everything around us. He has control of all the variables. He knows what is, including what was, and what will be. This is at least how God is usually portrayed.

Given that, we cannot be said to have free will. We will do things that God knows we will do, because he has made us so.

Looking at it from another way, when God makes you or me, does he know what will become of us? If he does not, then he is not omniscient.

If he does know me while making me, can he make me a boy or a girl? Can he make me so that I appreciate art, can he make me so that I will grow to find abortion abhorable? If he cannot make me in a certain way, his power knows a limit, so he cannot be omnipotent.

Even postulating a God outside time does not change this, no matter how much you would like it to be so.
--God timelessly knows that I will choose choice "C", a choice I would claim to make freely
--If C is in the timeless realm, it is now necessary C
--If it is now necessary-C then it could not be otherwise. Thus there are no actual possibilities
--If I can not do otherwise when I act, I do not do so freely
--Therefore when I do choice C, I will not do it freely

Heh - you copy and pasted that necessary C argument. Look at the phrase "it is now necessary C" and tell me how you would state that with no time component. You could as easily say that God timelessly knows that I have chosen choice "C" and it makes more sense. Now you have the right framework. Because of where God is in relation to time, He knows all of what we have done and all of the choices we have made. Our particular spot on the timeline notwithstanding.

Look at it from another perspective. The Bible says that God created man in His image. So the essential nature of our spirits should align with the essential nature of God - not the power, but the nature. So we should be beings of love and creativity and choice - all things we observe on a daily basis. For God to commit to creating us in is image, He also had to commit to creating us with freedom to choose. At the same time, He created something which He wholly contains. There is nothing created which was not created by God. So how does an all-powerful, all-present, all-knowing, creative, loving, choosing being create something that is a reflection of Himself? Assuming it can be done, I propose that this is what it looks like.

~Aldin, philosophmoronically

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

You know, god can't possibly know all the choices I can make because that number is infinite.

Not really. You can not choose to travel the cosmos. No amount of money will provide you with the technology to travel the stars in our lifetime. You can not choose to be in Africa, South America, and Australia in the same minute because you can not teleport.
All choices are limited by circumstance. Someone paralyzed can not choose to to participate in an IronMan event or even get out of bed on their own. Infinite is a little strong, I prefer nearly limitless.
No one can know what God can and cannot do. This is what makes these types of discussions fairly pointless.
I still like my choose-your-own-adventure theory.

Happy Holidays one and all... peace

[Aldin]

Heh - Tornado, infinite is not the same as all-inclusive. The number set of integers is infinite, but does not include fractions. The same can be said of choices.

~Aldin, making one of an essentially infinite number of possible responses

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Heh - Tornado, infinite is not the same as all-inclusive. The number set of integers is infinite, but does not include fractions. The same can be said of choices.

~Aldin, making one of an essentially infinite number of possible responses

Fractions are part of infinity.

There are an infinite number of decimals/fractions between each integer.

There are also an infinite number of infinities.

MegaSilver, who read and owns a book dealing with infinity. Very interesting and cool book to read.

[Dysole]

Thinking on it, the number of potential outcomes for my life has to be a finite number just a really fricking huge one. Because as Tornado stated there is only a finite number of choices presented to me each time I must make a choice. As infinity isn't a number but a concept of limitlessness no matter how many choices I make in my life I can never reach infinity. It will just be a really huge number.

I also agree with Aldin on the whole "This argument isn't thinking fourth dimensionally."

~Dysole, who loves that there are more numbers between 1 and 2 then there are integers

[Neurosion]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Thinking on it, the number of potential outcomes for my life has to be a finite number just a really fricking huge one. Because as Tornado stated there is only a finite number of choices presented to me each time I must make a choice. As infinity isn't a number but a concept of limitlessness no matter how many choices I make in my life I can never reach infinity. It will just be a really huge number.

Let's not forget that the potential outcomes for your life are unavoidably affected by the huge finite number of choices presented to all the people you interact with, and in turn how their lives' outcomes have been affected by the choices of those people that THEY interact with, so on and so on. To really get the complete picture, you have to consider the interference of animals, bacteria and viruses. For that matter, if you've poked around in chaos theory you have to consider how small, seemingly random atmospheric variations might affect the weather, and how severely the weather can impact your life. What about extraterrestrial factors, such as sunspots and coronal mass ejections?

The number of potential outcomes of our lives may not be strictly infinite, but I'd say they're close enough that, were they all laid out in front of us, I'm not sure we would notice the difference. Given the number of interactions involved, one might believe that our actual choices have very little effect at all.

So what was that about free will?

I think this may be one of the reasons people ultimately crack and shoot up a movie theater. There's no quicker way to take control of your life than to completely ruin it.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Neurosion

Let's not forget that the potential outcomes for your life are unavoidably affected by the huge finite number of choices presented to all the people you interact with, and in turn how their lives' outcomes have been affected by the choices of those people that THEY interact with, so on and so on. To really get the complete picture, you have to consider the interference of animals, bacteria and viruses. For that matter, if you've poked around in chaos theory you have to consider how small, seemingly random atmospheric variations might affect the weather, and how severely the weather can impact your life. What about extraterrestrial factors, such as sunspots and coronal mass ejections?

The number of potential outcomes of our lives may not be strictly infinite, but I'd say they're close enough that, were they all laid out in front of us, I'm not sure we would notice the difference. Given the number of interactions involved, one might believe that our actual choices have very little effect at all.

So what was that about free will?

I think this may be one of the reasons people ultimately crack and shoot up a movie theater. There's no quicker way to take control of your life than to completely ruin it.

To us yes. But we as humans have trouble conceptualizing numbers once it gets to a million or a billion. However, even with all those new whatsits you've added in infinity is still miles away. Here's a great example of what I mean about giant numbers still not even coming close to infinity.

Do our choices have an effect? I would argue they do. It's like a series of butterfly effects upon the world around us. I know that I wouldn't have made choices or been in a position to make choices without hundreds of choices made by others. So I guess my point is, yeah there's a bajillion possibilities from our perspective but we're only working with a tiny corner of reality and so we work the best from what we have. We're not going to have the big picture.

~Dysole, who honestly thinks none of us can truly comprehend infinity. It is probably not a coincidence that Georg Cantor and Kurt Godel kinda went nuts once they started delving into it

[Neurosion]

Originally Posted by Dysole

To us yes. But we as humans have trouble conceptualizing numbers once it gets to a million or a billion. However, even with all those new whatsits you've added in infinity is still miles away. Here's a great example of what I mean about giant numbers still not even coming close to infinity.

I'm clear on infinity (or at least our inability to "see" it). I was just interested in making the point that "huge" in your earlier message was insufficient. On a scale where huge is "the number of choices I make in my lifetime," the actual number of possible outcomes for your life is closer to huge to the N factorial power.

Still not infinity, of course, but significantly larger than "huge."

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Neurosion

I'm clear on infinity (or at least our inability to "see" it). I was just interested in making the point that "huge" in your earlier message was insufficient. On a scale where huge is "the number of choices I make in my lifetime," the actual number of possible outcomes for your life is closer to huge to the N factorial power.

Still not infinity, of course, but significantly larger than "huge."

Eh, we're just using huge to mean two different things. ^_^

~Dysole, who guesses he could have used stupendously mind numbingly colossally ginormously uncountabillion. ^_^