The Book of Mammoth

[Soundwarp SG-1]

I don't see anything concerning about him, all he really has going for him is decent survability and limited deadly strike. The limited Heroic Duty thing is probably more a negative than a positive.

I also really don't see him needing to be more than 215 if he goes down to 3 attack 5 defense, at those stats he is pretty much just Mr. Zsasz with 2 more life and no crazy multi-attack potential. Mr. Zsasz is really who this guy needs to be judged against I think, Rhino isn't that great of a comparison point. Rhino and Mammoth might be thematically similar, but their designs don't have much of anything in common and I don't think they would end up in the same niche or army builds really. Rhino is mediocre for his cost anyway IMO, though that seems to be the case with most ground-pounder 'super strong beatstick' units.

[IAmBatman]

At 5 defense I could do 215. At 6 defense I would want to do 225-230.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

I don't see anything concerning about him, all he really has going for him is decent survability and limited deadly strike. The limited Heroic Duty thing is probably more a negative than a positive.

I also really don't see him needing to be more than 215 if he goes down to 3 attack 5 defense, at those stats he is pretty much just Mr. Zsasz with 2 more life and no crazy multi-attack potential. Mr. Zsasz is really who this guy needs to be judged against I think, Rhino isn't that great of a comparison point. Rhino and Mammoth might be thematically similar, but their designs don't have much of anything in common and I don't think they would end up in the same niche or army builds really. Rhino is mediocre for his cost anyway IMO, though that seems to be the case with most ground-pounder 'super strong beatstick' units.

The Brotherly duty was meant to be a negative as a way to get around his high defense by "tricking" him into taking a swipe to protect his sister. Of course that only happens when they are together. I thought it would help balance out her boost to him (obviously I underestimated that). On his own it's has zero impact so I ignored it as far as costing.

[japes]

Taking everything into account and weighing in the CRB comments, I'm going to shoot somewhere in the middle and reduce his defense to 5 along with the attack of 3 and up his cost to 220 and see where he falls.

[IAmBatman]

I think that should work just fine.

[japes]

Ronin's latest test.

Originally Posted by Ronin

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Mammoth/Shimmer

Army Test
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Mammoth, Shimmer, Angel, Martian Manhunter I, Commander Rogers (1000) vs Deadpool, Cable, Wild Child, Jubilee, Professor X (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

First round: Mammoth and Shimmer don't see any action. Cable and Deadpool go to work in the first round and put 3 wounds each on Commander Rogers and Angel. In return, Team 1 only puts 2 wounds on Cable. Mammoth and Shimmer are moved out at the end of the round by Martian Manhunter, with Mammoth engaging Deadpool and Shimmer moving so that she'll have him in clear sight.

Second round: Things go from bad to worse for Team 1. Nate and Wade just keep slinging attack dice, and they're on a hot streak. Angel and Shimmer both go down on the mutants' first OM, and Mammoth falls after a couple turns' attacks from Deadpool.

The game goes a little over another round, as the Mutants' attack dice cool off just a little bit and Martian Manhunter learns to start rolling shields. Still a dominant game for Team 2.

Mammoth Summary:

• Weak-Minded: not used
• Uncontrolled Rage: skulls doubled 0 times on 2 attacks
• Brotherly Duty: Not used. It did encourage Shimmer and Mammoth to spread out slightly.
• Damage Done: 0W to Deadpool (2 attacks)
• Damage Taken: 6W from Deadpool (4 attacks). Destroyed by Deadpool Round 2, Turn 5.

Shimmer Summary:

• Controlling the Rage: not used
• Elemental Transmutation 3: not used
• Damage Done: n/a
• Damage Taken: 4W from Cable (2 attacks). Destroyed by Cable Round 2, Turn 1.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Cable with 2 wounds; Deadpool with 1 wound; Professor X, Wild Child, and Jubilee unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Ivy's Greenhouse
Units: Mammoth, Shimmer, Baron Zemo (Heinrich), Red Skull, Beast Boy (T-Rex) (800) vs Wrecking Crew (800)

Spoiler Alert!

First round: all mobilization. Wrecking Crew assisted by a couple good d20 rolls.

Second round: Red Skull and Mammoth start mixing it up with Wrecker and Bulldozer. Mammoth only gets one attack in this round, but fails to do damage. Skull catches a tough break when Bulldozer rolls 4 skulls (plus an auto-skull) against him, which he only just survives.

Third round: The Wrecking Crew wins initiative and then manages 8 turns this round, and really tear Team 1 apart. Red Skull goes down on the first OM. Mammoth puts a couple wounds on Wrecker by doubling an otherwise-ineffective roll before bring brought down himself. The Wrecking Crew use the rest of their turns to clean up Shimmer and Beast Boy, leaving only Zemo to deal with.

Fourth and fifth rounds: Zemo manages to drag things out a little bit by destroying Wrecker and using Adhesive X, but inevitably goes down.

Mammoth Summary:

• Weak-Minded: not used
• Uncontrolled Rage: skulls doubled 1 times on 2 attacks
• Brotherly Duty: not used
• Damage Done: 2W to Wrecker (2 attacks)
• Damage Taken: 4W from Wrecker (2 attacks), 2W from Bulldozer (2 attacks). Destroyed by Wrecker Round 3, Turn 3.

Shimmer Summary:

• Controlling the Rage: gave Mammoth 1 extra attack die on 1 attack. Dealt 0 extra wounds to Wrecker
• Elemental Transmutation 3: Used 1 time. 1W to Bulldozer
• Damage Done: no attacks
• Damage Taken: 3W from Bulldozer (1 attack), 1W from Piledriver (1 attack). Destroyed by Piledriver Round 3, Turn 5

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Piledriver with 3 wounds, Bulldozer with 3 wounds, Thunderball unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Crash Landing
Units: Mammoth, Star-Lord, Red Skull, Robot, Angel, Skrull Infiltrator (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

First round: The Adventurers are lucky, with Reed activating 3, then 2, then 3. They manage to get right into the fray and bring down Robot before Team 1 can do any damage.

Second round: The FF take initiative and Reed manages another improbable three-Adventurer turn, but Team 1 has a spot of luck, and manage to make it through relatively unscathed; only Angel takes damage, from Flame On 4. Angel manages to use Guardian Angel to set Mammoth up next to Sue. On his next turn, Red Skull pulls Johnny out of Sue's protection and then gets lucky and OHKOs him. He passes off his next turn to Mammoth, who hits a 3-skull, no-blank roll and also OHKOs Sue, swinging the momentum of the match in one turn. Mammoth also attacks Reed a couple times this round, but does no damage.

Third round: Team 1 takes initiative. Red Skull gets lucky and manages to hit Ben for 3 wounds to finish him off. He passes the baton to Mammoth, who hits a 4-skull (which becomes 8-skull) roll to take out Mister Fantastic.

Mammoth Summary:

• Weak-Minded: not used
• Uncontrolled Rage: skulls doubled 3 times in 4 attacks
• Brotherly Duty: not used
• Damage Done: 5W to Invisible Woman (1 attack), 4W to Mr Fantastic (destroyed) (3 attacks)
• Damage Taken: 0W from 0 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Star-Lord with 4 wounds, Red Skull with 1 wound, Mammoth unwounded, Skrull Infiltrator never placed

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Mammoth is still not a bad gamble for 220 points. Couple big losses in there, but he was up against some stiff competition, and when he comes through, he really comes through. He tends to draw a lot of attacks, because no-one wants to give him too many chances to hit a big roll.

This version does address my previous concerns about the rage effect scaling out of control, with some help from a revised Shimmer; definitely liking her with a more modest effect and price point.

I'd consider maybe dropping Shimmer 5-15 points and raising Mammoth the same amount, but they're definitely a lot closer than they were.

I agree with his logic and will bring him up 10 and her down 10 The two together at 350 seems right and he alone seems strong at 220 so 230 for him and 120 for her.

[IAmBatman]

So where are we at overall? Might want to whip up some playtesting summaries here.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

So where are we at overall? Might want to whip up some playtesting summaries here.

Yeah if any design needs a summary it's this one.

[japes]

Fret's test

Originally Posted by fret_gurglo

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Mammoth

Army Test
Map: Alkali Lake
Units: Green Lantern (John) (340), Mammoth (230), Molly Hayes (180), Star-Lord (250) (1000) vs Black Lantern (475), Black Lantern x3 (525) (1000)

Powers Used:
Weak Minded 4: 0 times
Uncontrolled Rage: 7 times
Damage: 6
Brotherly Duty: 0 times

Damage from normal attacks: 6

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Teams come out swinging. Green Lantern hits a Black Lantern for 3 wounds. Black Hand attacks Star-Lord but Green Lantern blocks. Molly Hayes destroys an unhurt Black Lantern with a single hit. Black Lanterns gang up and hit Molly Hayes for 2 wounds. Mammoth attacks Black Hand but does no damage.
Round 2: Molly hits a Black Lantern for 1 wound. Black Hand gives a wound to Green Lantern and then attacks Star-Lord. Green Lantern blocks this attack and green shield hits Black Hand for 1 wound. Mammoth hits Black Hand for 2 wounds (rolled 3 skulls). Black Hand attacks Green Lantern, but Green Lantern uses last battery marker for the block and would destroy Black Hand, who removes a black battery marker to remain with 3 wounds. Molly Hayes destroys a Black Lantern.
Round 3: Molly Hayes destroys last Black Lantern. Black Hand hits Green Lantern for 2 wounds. Mammoth rolls 4 shields for his attack. Black Hand destroys Green Lantern, did not remove black marker to take control. Mammoth rolls 3 skulls and again would destroy Black Hand, who removes a black marker to remain at 3 wounds.
Round 4: Mammoth attacks and does no damage. Black Hand hits Star-Lord for 2 wounds. Mammoth rolls 3 skulls(6 hits) and removes last black marker from Black Hand. Black Hand hits Star-Lord for 1 wound. Mammoth misses. Black Hand destroys Star-Lord but has no markers to use to revive him.
Round 5: Black Hand hits Mammoth for 2 wounds. Mammoth misses. Black Hand destroys mammoth, gains a black marker and uses it to take control of Mammoth. Black Hand then destroys Molly Hayes

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Black Lantern team won. Black Lantern (William Hand) with 3 wounds and 0 battery markers and Mammoth with 3 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Alkali Lake
Units: Bucky (60), Captain America (240), Mammoth (230), Meggan (205), Rocket Red (150), Shimmer (120) (1005) vs Aquaman (330), Mera (210), Sub-mariner (250), Tempest (210) (1000)

Powers Used (Mammoth):
Weak Minded 4: 0 times
Uncontrolled Rage: 0 times
Damage: 0
Brotherly Duty: 0 times

Damage from normal attacks: 0

Powers Used (Shimmer):
Directing the Rage: 0 times (0 dice)
Skulls rolled: 0
Elemental Transmutation 3: 0 times
Damage: 0

Damage from normal attacks: 0

Spoiler Alert!

Meggan copies Captain America to become Human, Soldier, & Patriotic.
Round 1: No attacks.
Round 2: Captain America hits Mera and Tempest for 1 wound each. Tempest places a water tile and hits Captain America for 1 wound.
Round 3: Tempest places another water tile and hits Bucky for 1 wound. Meggan copies Mammoth and hits Aquaman for 4 wounds. Sub-Marnier then moves with Water Avenger for 1 wound on Meggan. Tempest places another water tile and hits Mammoth for 1 wound.
Round 4: Aquaman hits Mammoth for 5 wounds and destroys him. Sub-Marnier hits Meggan for 2 wounds. Meggan hits Sub-Mariner for 4 wounds. Bucky finishes off Aquaman.
Round 5: Mera uses Aquakinesis to move Captain America, wound Bucky and destroy Meggan. Captain hits Mera for 2 wounds. Sub-Mariner his Captain America for 2 wounds. Tempest his Captain America for 1 wound. Captain America destroys Sub-Mariner.
Round 6: Tempest places a water tile. Captain America hits Tempest for 1 wound. Bucky hits Mera for 1 wound. Mera uses Aquakinesis for 1 wound on each Bucky and Rocket Red. Captain destroys Mera. Bucky hits Tempest for 1 wound. Tempest places another water tile.
Round 7: Tempest places last tile and destroys Captain America. Tempest destroys bucky. Tempest destroys Shimmer in a single hit.
Round 8: Tempest hits Rocket Red for 1 wound. Rocket Red destroys Tempest.



Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Mammoth & Shimmer’s team wins. Rocket Red with 2 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Alkali Lake
Units: Mammoth (230), Meggan (205), Red Skull (220), Scientist Supreme (160), Shimmer (120) (935) vs Angel (90), Brother Voodoo (210), Diablo (140), Jackal (255), Mad Hatter (90), Puppet Master (140) (925)

Powers Used (Mammoth):
Weak Minded 4: 7 times
Uncontrolled Rage: 10 times
Damage: 11
Brotherly Duty: 1 times

Damage from normal attacks: 11

Powers Used (Shimmer):
Directing the Rage: 1 times (2 dice)
Skulls rolled: 0
Elemental Transmutation 3: 0 times
Damage: 0

Damage from normal attacks: 2

Spoiler Alert!

Meggan copies Red Skull to become Clone, Ruthless, & Mastermind.
Jackal chooses Brother Voodoo as experiement.
Round 1: No attacks.
Round 2: Mad Hatter hats Meggan. A controlled Meggan hits Scientist Supreme for 1 wound. Red Skull hits Mad Hatter for 1 wound. Meggan hits Angel for 3 wounds. Red Skull destroys Angel.
Round 3: Mammoth hits Diablo for 2 wounds.
Round 4: Aquaman hits Mammoth for 5 wounds and destroys him. Sub-Marnier hits Meggan for 2 wounds. Meggan hits Sub-Mariner for 4 wounds. Bucky finishes off Aquaman.
Round 5: Mad hatter controls Meggan who attacks shimmer but Mammoth takes a LEA wound to block for 1 additional wound.
Round 6: Shimmer hits Diablo for 2 wounds. Scientist Supreme destroys Diablo. Brother Voodoo fails to controls Mammoth by 1 point on the 20-sided die. Mammoth hits Brother Voodoo for 1 wound. Brother Voodoo rolls a 2 for Mammoth.
Round 7: Mammoth hits Brother voodoo for 1 wound. A controlled Meggan attacks Scientist Supreme for 2 wounds. Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientiest Supreme to Meggan to knock off the hat. Brother Voodoo controls Mammoth and hits Shimmer for 3 wounds. Mammoth misses Brother Voodoo. Brother Voodoo controls Mammoth and destroys Shimmer.
Round 8: Red Skull transfers a wound from Mammoth to Brother Voodoo. He repeats to destroy Brother Voodoo.
Round 9: Jackal clones Brother Voodoo. Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientist Supreme to Puppet Master. Puppet Master controls Mammoth twice for 0 wounds to Scientist Supreme. Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientist Supreme to Puppet Master. Brother Voodoo controls Mammoth and attacks Scientist Supreme for 1 wound.
Round 10: Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientist Supreme to Puppet Master and destroys him. Brother Voodoo has Mammoth hit Scientist Supreme for 2 wounds and then succumbs to Cellular Degeneration. Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientist Supreme to Mad Hatter. Red Skull transfers a wound from Scientist Supreme to Mad Hatter.
Round 11: Red Skull destroys Mad Hatter. Meggan hits Brother Voodoo for 1 wound. Brother Voodoo controls Red Skull who destroys Scientist Supreme and hits Mammoth for 1 wound.
Round 12: Brother Voodoo controls Red Skull for 3 wounds on Megan. Red Skull transfers a wound from Megan to Jackal. Meggan destroys Brother Voodoo. Red Skull destroys Jackal.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Mammoth & Shimmer’s team wins. Mammoth with 1 wound, Meggan with 1 wound and Red Skull at full health.

___________________________________________________________



THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: The tested costs for each figure seems pretty good. No concerns here other than that Shimmer would never be drafted without Mammoth, which is the intent.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Shimmer did not see much action or use in these playtests, but Mammoth is extremely useful for a brute. His attack can be incredibly swingy however. Overall very good additions.

[IAmBatman]

Big loss, close win, big win. Not a bad distribution. What are we looking like overall here?

[japes]

Summary ignoring early test

Switch to 3 attack
Without Shimmer
@215 1-2
@220 0-1
@230 1-1

With Shimmer and Directing the Rage change

@230/120 2-3

Over all at 230 with all current changes 3-3 Plus a loss at 220.

I definitely don't think he's overpowered anymore.

I give people time to look before I propose for Final Edit.

EDIT: I was typing when you asked the question so hopefully this satisfies your request.

[IAmBatman]

It does. Hard to complain about 3-4 overall with these changes. Looks good at 230 for final editing.