Oklahoma NHSD 2014 - Rescheduled Nov 22

[Heroscape74]

Fwiw I think Marvel is a distraction to this entire event and should be out for this reason alone.

[lwayman]

Originally Posted by IndustrialOkie

Hi Caps. To be perfectly honest if this is how the armies are drafted then i probably will pass. I absolutely respect your reason for drafting in this manner, but I really enjoy playing "themed" armies as I never cared for orcs fighting with WW2 soldiers with samurai etc. I tend to run Roman, Gladiator or Colonial only lists and wouldn't really be interested in breaking up whatever pre-drafted army I chose to bring. I'll keep watching the thread for developments, and wish you much luck with the tourney!

Regards,

-Tom

These commets are a reflection of my thoughts on the Marvel issue as well. I prefer my themes of Captain America and the Airborne Elite with the Micro Corps Agents as Navy Seals or Iron Man and Mec Constrructs or even Dr. Doom with the Zetian Guards and either Orcs or Marrow squads, so I am not asking for anything more than you and most everyone else here already have. (See my posts in the other threads and you will see how balanced these themes are.)

We play here at our local veneu about 50/50 and I won last month with no Marvel and I won last years NHSD tournament here, again with no Marvel but all I have to do is drive across town to play with people and in a setting I am familiar with, but you are asking me to leave my best teams at home on the bench while you bring your favorites, I don't consider that a fair deal, especially to drive 200+ miles for.

The last time I played a figure over 300 points was last august and I played the Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, the airborne elite, the Micro Corps Agents (x2) and Deadeye Dan for a 1200 point total. I faced all five of the Largest Dragons on one side with Iskra and the rechets, and on the other was Major Q9 and Q10 along with the zeitian Guards, the warden, and 10 or more squads of deathreavers. Across the table was a Wyvren, the fire giant, several squads of ghost knights, and I can't remember what else. And I honestly don,t see how my team could have been considered umbalanced and/or over powered.

The Marvel disscusion is not a distraction, it is as important as customs/no cusotms, pooled/pre-built teams, the particulars of using Samual Brown, or what maps, point totals, or scenarios we play. So fwiw it puzzles me how 6 - 10 Marvel figures are such an ominous threat to the hundreds of other figures in the game which includes giants, robots, ogres, trolls, wizards, minotaurs, yeti, sasquatch, vampies, demons, zombies, elementals, and warriors from all time periods. I mean honestly we all want to keep this awsome game alive, and I have never understood how a superhero or a villain could cause such a divison that anyone would seek to dis-include another player (or players) based on their own preferences and prejudices. So just as Tom stated earlier I don't really care to play without my "themes" either and I find it appropriate to stand up and say hey I wanna use some of my favorites too.

[caps]

Thanks for speaking up lwayman. I'm not ignoring your post. I'll hopefully have sufficient time to reply tomorrow.

EDIT: I can't fall asleep, so I guess I have time to reply now.

The short version is that I can't make everybody happy and I'm going to go with what I think is A) the norm and more importantly B) the option most likely to simultaneously maximize attendance and overall fun. If that is best served by allowing Marvel, I'm all for it. Otherwise, Marvel will have to sit this event out.

The long version is below.

When I first saw your message, I planned to respond by digging up quotes from the original playtesters and designers of the game about how Marvel was not designed to be played with regular "Classic" Heroscape and how it was untested for balance with Classic Heroscape figures. I was going to elaborate on how Marvel figures are not part of the Heroscape canon, are not mentioned anywhere in Heroscape lore (the journals of Thormun and such), don't follow any of the Heroscape generals, etc. etc. but I suspect that's not what we're really discussing here.

What I'm getting from your message (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you want to play with Marvel figures with Classic figures. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use Marvel figures with Classic figures. It may be imbalanced, its not exactly what they were intended for, but they do technically work. I'm hardly the one to say you can't play Marvel when you want to.

My intent with this event was for it to be like a semi-tournament event. Sort of like GenCon or an event like that. Maybe no one wants to go to an event like that. If that's the case, I'm fine with throwing an event people want to attend--a party is no fun if no one shows up. However, if people want to attend an event like that (and I think they do), I know that Marvel is typically not allowed at events like that. There are exceptions. I don't want to dig up a list of all the events that have been recorded here on Heroscapers. I will put together a list of the GenCon events, since they're handily available nearby.

(this is the part where I go overboard, and you can really skip it)

Spoiler Alert!

Events where Marvel is allowed:

Spoiler Alert!

1. Assassin’s Creed - "Players bring a pre-drafted 450 point HeroScape army, Marvel is allowed. The army must include at least 3 unique or uncommon heroes. You cannot use the same uncommon hero more than once. Army cannot exceed 16 hexes. Each game you choose one of your opponent’s unique or uncommon heroes to destroy. If you destroy that hero before they destroy the one they picked from you, you win. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."
2. Heroes Only - "Players bring a pre-drafted 550 point Heroscape army that does not include squad units. Marvel allowed. Army cannot exceed 16 hexes. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."
3. Fog of War - "Players a pre-drafted 450 point HeroScape army, Marvel is allowed. Army cannot exceed 24 hexes. All ranged attacks, abilities, and auras are cut in half rounded up. See www.heroscapers.com for more details. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."
4. Kid's Tournament - "Open to all kids 12 and under. Players bring a pre-drafted 400 point Heroscape army, Marvel is allowed. Army size is limited to 24 hexes. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."

That's 4 events that allow Marvel. 2 of them are special scenario-events, 1 of them is a regular kill-'em-all with army restrictions, and the 4th is a kid's tournament (Marvel is F-U-N to play with, even if you're not a kid).

Events where Marvel is not allowed:

Spoiler Alert!

1. Monster Mash - "Players bring a pre-drafted 500 point Heroscape, no Marvel. The army MUST include at least 350 points worth of Large and / or Huge figures. Army cannot exceed 24 hexes. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."
2. 4 x 4 400 - "Players bring FOUR, pre-drafted 400 point Heroscape armies, no Marvel. Army Size is limited to 24 hexes. No card can be used more than once across all 4 armies; multiple commons allowed. Players assign the value 1 - 4 to their armies; army # will be drawn at random each round until all 4 are used. The final will be Pick Your Poison. Prizes will be awarded. "
3. Light Weight - "Players bring a pre-drafted 300 point HeroScape army, no Marvel. Army cannot exceed 16 hexes. The tournament is played in one hour rounds,. Prizes will be awarded."
4. Championship Day 1 - "The Main Event! Open to all players, 64 positions. 5 round swiss style tournament with the top 16 players advancing to Day 2. Players bring a pre-drafted 450 point Heroscape army, (no Marvel) army size is limited to 24 hexes. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. See Day 2 for additional details and Day 2 rules."
5. Championship Day 2 - "Reverse the Whip!! Day 2 players bring the same army they played on Day 1. Players will be switching armies with their opponent for every match. Can you beat the army that got you to Day 2? four times in a row? Others will be using your figures and cards; if you don’t want people touching your stuff, do not play in this event. No Reinforcements this year!"
6. Treasure Quest - "Secure the most Treasure Glyphs to win! Open to all players, 16 positions. 4 round swiss with one game final, if necessary. Players bring a pre-drafted 500 point Heroscape army, no Marvel. Army size is limited to 16 hexes. Tournament is played in one hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded."
7. Heat of Battle - "Players bring a pre-drafted 500 point Heroscape army, no Marvel. Army size is limited to 24 hexes. Players take turns placing a card’s worth of units, unengaged, on an empty space. Squad figures must be placed adjacent to other friendly squad figures just placed. Battle begins after all units have been placed. Tournament is played in 1 hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded. Additional information: Players will roll the D20 to see who places their first card's worth of units. The D20 roll winner can defer, if they choose. The player who places units second will have initiative for the first round."
8. General Wars - "War of the Valkyrie Generals! Players bring a pre-drafted 450 point Heroscape army, no Marvel. Army Size is limited to 24 hexes. All Army Cards MUST be from the same Valkyrie General. The Valkrill units will be classified as Utgar for this event. The tournament is played in one hour rounds. The highest ranked player for each Valkyrie General wins prizes."
9. Team Tournament - "Teams bring a pre-drafted 550 point heroScape army, no Marvel. Each player can have no more than 50 more or less points then their teammate. Teammates cannot have the same figures. Army size is limited to 24 hexes. The tournament is played in 1 hour rounds. Prizes will be awarded. Purchase 1 ticket PER team, not person!! (PS, the tickets here may change to 1 per person, but I'm just trying to save you guys some money!)"

So that makes 4 events where Marvel is allowed, an 9 events where it is not (including the National Heroscape Championship, the Team Tournament, General Wars, Heat of Battle...).

Okay, so I went overboard there. The point is, that on a national level, Marvel is typically (again, there are exceptions) not allowed at official, standard, non-scenario events. I don't think I need to say that anymore--if you want to dispute it, I won't argue with you.

The question is, is this what we're doing for our event? I don't know the answer yet, but I think it is "no". Will I show up if Marvel is allowed? Yes, I will. Am I going to show up even though C3V/SoV will not be allowed? Yes, I will. I hope everyone who hears about it and is able will come because I think this event will be fun for them, even if it means playing outside of their comfort zone. The guys I normally play with definitely will--they almost always play 'Scape with at least 4 players, sometimes as many as 6-8, so a setting where every game is 1v1 will be weird for them, but I'm going to encourage them to come because I think they'll have fun.

I don't know what else there is to say, lwayman, but I hope you attend whether Marvel is allowed or not. I'd love to meet you and play Heroscape with you.

[lwayman]

Thanks for the response Capsocrates! My comments above was not intended as a rant, and I am glad you didn't take the time to research all of the play testers quotes and comments, etc. and all the game histories, cause I have read and discussed it all before, so there is no need to educate me.

My point I believe is simple, the issue is a discussion point that is of equal importance to the event and to me as the other items we have been discussing, and seeing as how we haven't even nailed down the point limits yet, and the tournament structure (ie:swiss style, standard, etc.), than I believe this item to still be on the table. I just do not feel this subject is a distraction!

My intentions when discrbing the instance where I used the Hulk was to simply show the extreme number of powerful figures in that game that IMO warrented the inclsuion of such a powerhose. I guess what I am feeling is this: I don't want to not be able to bring say Captain America with my soldiers and sit down to play and my oppent says oh btw here are my two Feral Trolls or here is my Dragon and feel like oh crap I am out gunned and I left my best figure at home.

[caps]

I should probably update the OP with what stowoodbury and I have discussed regarding format. I think we are doing somewhere between 450 and 550 points. We're picking out maps and I'm planning on Rolling Rumble, because I've heard that's the simplest way to get the most games in.

Maybe we are also coming at this from different perspectives. When I see an event's rules for army building I try to think of an army that would be fun and competitive within those guidelines. If you're a stickler or theme, a 4th Mass build is one of the strongest armies in the game, and Sgt. Drake is just as thematic as Captain America (and almost as strong); he makes a great beat-stick for a 4th Mass build, most range can't touch him, and he has a special attack for taking care of rats. You can throw in Sir Denrick to take care of those pesky trolls, or Sir Gilbert and some Knights for a screen that can roll your 4th Mass into position for Wait Then Fire. Any of the above armies are very strong and can be built within the no-Marvel framework. As you've said yourself, Marvel characters are not the only strong characters in the game; if your opponent can bring Krug or Cyprien, so can you. You are at as much of a disadvantage by not bringing any Marvel as he is.

[lwayman]

[Quote=Capsocrates]
The short version is that I can't make everybody happy and I'm going to go with what I think is A) the norm and more importantly B) the option most likely to simultaneously maximize attendance and overall fun. If that is best served by allowing Marvel, I'm all for it. Otherwise, Marvel will have to sit this event out.
[Quote]

Okay so my only question is what if, like the current vote of 3 to 3 what is the decison in the event of a tie?

[Heroscape74]

Caps:

Just an update I have at least one person confirmed coming with me to the event. I may possibley have more and will update you when confirmed. Thanks!

[caps]

Originally Posted by lwayman

Okay so my only question is what if, like the current vote of 3 to 3 what is the decison in the event of a tie?

The answer to your question as stated is that it is up to stowoodbury and I since we are the Event Directors. My feelings at this point are that we'll see how it goes without Marvel, and next time we'll consider allowing Marvel, if that's what people want to do. But not this time. I do intend to have a brief exit poll for that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by IndustrialOkie

Caps:

Just an update I have at least one person confirmed coming with me to the event. I may possibley have more and will update you when confirmed. Thanks!

Sweet! That's very exciting.

[Dad_Scaper]

from an outsider:

I've been at more than my share of Scape tournaments. This is a word of advice on how to build an army and otherwise attend your first tourney:

Bring the units you like to play. I don't like playing Raelin and I've never brought her to a tournament.

Do not fear power builds. They aren't anything you can't handle. I've never seen Q9 win an event.

If there is one word of real advice I'd have liked before my first event, it's "be ready to manage your order markers."

Have fun. Once your behind is in the chair, you've already won the day.

Good luck, all.

[wolfeman1968]

Looking over some maps...for a Rolling Rumble format smaller maps will yeild to faster play....but smaller maps will favor melee units.

Map suggestions Swamp Thing, Highways and Dieways, and Slash & Burn.

[caps]

Thanks for dropping in, D_S.

Originally Posted by wolfeman1968

Looking over some maps...for a Rolling Rumble smaller maps will yeild to faster play....but smaller maps will favor melee units.

Map suggestions Swamp Thing, Highways and Dieways, and Slash & Burn.

Thanks for the suggestions! Highways and Dieways and Swamp Thing are a bit expansion-intensive for what we have available, but they're both great maps. I'll look into Slash & Burn.

Also, nothing wrong with favoring melee.

[wolfeman1968]

I was looking at the Ohio NHSD tourniment they played the rolling rumble format and some of there maps might work.