The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I like the changes all around. Protector is fine, though you could consider Leader too, given the Migol precedent.

How tied are you to Steadfast? Seems like the existing Resolute would work fine.

Maybe Stalwart? That would be my choice.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Maybe Stalwart? That would be my choice.

I'm not against adding new personalities, but I prefer to use existing ones if reasonable.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I'm not against adding new personalities, but I prefer to use existing ones if reasonable.

I thought Stalwart was an existing personality? Am I getting mixed up?

It'd still be my choice, here, though.

[kolakoski]

Well met!


chas and I played a number of games yesterday (and into this morning) pre-testing four customs in anticipation of a more formal test to be done with the Gang on October 12. Before that test, I have some comments and invite feedback.

Rania was the most successful in terms of usefulness and fun. A Soldier's Endurance enabled her to engage quickly and do damage. Reversal encouraged an aggressive play style, but was not at all overpowered. 130 points is still a guess, but I think it's close to submission.

I had high hopes for Sirenia, but found myself ignoring her for OM placement. She lived and died with Ruthless Reversal and was otherwise no fun. She needs an offensive power to replace Succubus, so she can play more like Rania or, perhaps better, a different sculpt denoting a sorceress, with weaker general stats, although podding up might then be a problem. Ruthless Reversal is a great power, but a proper context has yet to be found.

Nieriel was underwhelming compared to the other customs or to other Relentless heroes Bonding with Death Knights. (Bonding's a no-no anyways?). Kon-Tar-Na, in particular, was ridiculously strong with them. Perhaps it was context again, but she did not excite.

Punch Knife was useful in getting around Rania's Reversal, but otherwise seemed weak in this context. Perhaps Double Assault (at 4 Attack and Range) would work, or Double Attack with the ranged attack being some kind of Special? I suspect making Xoroku a Champion would be a no-no, but what Orc hero isn't? Xorokus range/melee combo should work . . . somehow.

Now that we have a little experience with them, Rania is almost perfect, except for the question of price, while the others need to be reworked. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Scytale]

VC already has lots of medium fantasy heroes, so any you may try to submit would face more scrutiny than usual. Four all at once makes that even likelier. Even more likely because they all fit in the relatively uninteresting 110-130pt range, which is in the "strong normal" category where many of the D&D-era heroes lie collecting dust.

Rania's Soldier's Endurance has the basic problem of creating an out-of-turn attack. That can be remedied by changing the power to "after attacking" instead of "after taking a turn," though. Reversal is pretty neat.

It's a little strange for an undead to be a succubus; that's usually a demon thing. I'd rather you used a different name for the power anyway; something more generic like Steal Life Essence. Ruthless Reversal appears to be exactly the same as Rania's Reversal. That's great, but keep the name the same.

Neiriel is neat. I quite like the reuse of Frenzy here.

I like that the design is a single power. I don't really get the 4 Range from the mini picture or class, though. What gives the guy with knifehands range?

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Like Scytale mentioned, there is a pushback against normal medium fantasy heroes in VC. Anything in that category is going to face tougher scrutiny.

Reversal is a cool power, but it almost feels like it would be more at home on a Rogue or trickier card to me. A Valiant Elven Soldier can work, but I'm not detecting a strong personality or theme tying that together here. A Soldier's Endurance (assuming the out-of-turn attack is fixed) is fine, and Reversal is fine, but I'm not convinced that they combine to make the most exciting of figures. I feel like either leaning more into her endurance/determination or her agility from Reversal would make for a more distinct-feeling card.

I'm a little confused about the theme here. Succubus doesn't feel like the best name for that power (and if she's a Succubus, then perhaps that would be something to put on the left box as her species or class). This card also feels pretty similar to Rania thanks to their shared stats and Ruthless Reversal, which makes each of them feel a little less unique. If you want to submit both, then I think that reworking one of them would be a good idea (we do have some precedent of very similar figures with things like Johnny Sullivan and James Murphy, on one hand, but these figures are from pretty opposite themes and I think that a Succubus could have a more interesting power set than Reversal and a variant of Life Drain).

This is the strongest card of the bunch so far in my opinion. An Elven Ranger with Frenzy is cool to see, and Needle is a neat Special Attack with the defense penalty and only having 2 dice. I would still like to see it at 4 range to show that it's the throwing knives on her leg (and that feels like it'd be fun to mess around with with her Frenzy).

I do think that she needs a personality other than Relentless, though. Death Knight bonding feels wrong for her to me. There are plenty of non-synergistic opportunities, but as a quick suggestion I feel like Wild would be fine.

I see that he has throwing spears on his back, but I'm not a huge fan of the 4 range for this miniature. Perhaps it's just the fact that there are so few spears or that his hands already have weapons in them, but he doesn't truly feel like a ranged miniature. Perhaps switching the relationship between his normal attack and special could feel more natural: give him 1 range and a high normal attack and a weaker 4-range Special Attack where he throws a spear.

If you wanted to make him a champion, I wouldn't particularly mind, but I do kind of like the potential synergy with Ornak as a Warrior. Almost much all of the Orcs that we've seen are bonders, though, if I remember correctly, so that's worth keeping in mind. If you do want to make him a bonding hero, I'd consider the Death Chasers of Thesk as a potential option.

Theme-wise, I think that Xoroku might be a better fit for Valkrill than Utgar. Most of Utgar's Orcs are from Grut and have blue skin, but Valkrill has the D&D green Orcs with stuff like the Death Chasers and Gothlok. If there isn't a strong reason to choose Utgar, then I'd probably place him under Valkrill so that he can fit in with the Death Chasers and their Flagbearer.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Thanks so much for your support and feedback!

My comments in brackets within.

Originally Posted by Scytale

VC already has lots of medium fantasy heroes, so any you may try to submit would face more scrutiny than usual. Four all at once makes that even likelier. Even more likely because they all fit in the relatively uninteresting 110-130pt range, which is in the "strong normal" category where many of the D&D-era heroes lie collecting dust.

[With me, it’s all about the sculpts, and Kha got in, so . . .

Wow! You’re so with Clancampbell on D&D ‘Scape. I think strong with a twist is what I’m aiming at, but I take your point.]

Rania's Soldier's Endurance has the basic problem of creating an out-of-turn attack. That can be remedied by changing the power to "after attacking" instead of "after taking a turn," though. Reversal is pretty neat.

[Thanks, I’ll fix it. I like Reversal, too. Still open to a different context.]

It's a little strange for an undead to be a succubus; that's usually a demon thing. I'd rather you used a different name for the power anyway; something more generic like Steal Life Essence. Ruthless Reversal appears to be exactly the same as Rania's Reversal. That's great, but keep the name the same.

[I take your point on the name.

Ruthless Reversal allows Sirenia to change places with any small/medium figure, while Reversal allows Rania to change places with opponents’ figures.]

Neiriel is neat. I quite like the reuse of Frenzy here.

[I was afraid Frenzy wouldn’t pass muster.]


I like that the design is a single power. I don't really get the 4 Range from the mini picture or class, though. What gives the guy with knifehands range?

[It’s the spears on his back.]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Like Scytale mentioned, there is a pushback against normal medium fantasy heroes in VC. Anything in that category is going to face tougher scrutiny.

Reversal is a cool power, but it almost feels like it would be more at home on a Rogue or trickier card to me. A Valiant Elven Soldier can work, but I'm not detecting a strong personality or theme tying that together here. A Soldier's Endurance (assuming the out-of-turn attack is fixed) is fine, and Reversal is fine, but I'm not convinced that they combine to make the most exciting of figures. I feel like either leaning more into her endurance/determination or her agility from Reversal would make for a more distinct-feeling card.

[So that leaves us looking for different contexts for each power.]

I'm a little confused about the theme here. Succubus doesn't feel like the best name for that power (and if she's a Succubus, then perhaps that would be something to put on the left box as her species or class). This card also feels pretty similar to Rania thanks to their shared stats and Ruthless Reversal, which makes each of them feel a little less unique. If you want to submit both, then I think that reworking one of them would be a good idea (we do have some precedent of very similar figures with things like Johnny Sullivan and James Murphy, on one hand, but these figures are from pretty opposite themes and I think that a Succubus could have a more interesting power set than Reversal and a variant of Life Drain).

[From the above, contexts for Reversal and Ruthless Reversal need to be found. I’ll also work on Succubus (including the name).]

This is the strongest card of the bunch so far in my opinion. An Elven Ranger with Frenzy is cool to see, and Needle is a neat Special Attack with the defense penalty and only having 2 dice. I would still like to see it at 4 range to show that it's the throwing knives on her leg (and that feels like it'd be fun to mess around with with her Frenzy).

[Shocked at how popular she is. We’d have to rework Needle so it can work alone, but I’m good with that, also to keep her out of the fray.]

I do think that she needs a personality other than Relentless, though. Death Knight bonding feels wrong for her to me. There are plenty of non-synergistic opportunities, but as a quick suggestion I feel like Wild would be fine.

[No problem. We’ll go with Wild.]

I see that he has throwing spears on his back, but I'm not a huge fan of the 4 range for this miniature. Perhaps it's just the fact that there are so few spears or that his hands already have weapons in them, but he doesn't truly feel like a ranged miniature. Perhaps switching the relationship between his normal attack and special could feel more natural: give him 1 range and a high normal attack and a weaker 4-range Special Attack where he throws a spear.

[Sort of what I thought.]

If you wanted to make him a champion, I wouldn't particularly mind, but I do kind of like the potential synergy with Ornak as a Warrior. Almost much all of the Orcs that we've seen are bonders, though, if I remember correctly, so that's worth keeping in mind. If you do want to make him a bonding hero, I'd consider the Death Chasers of Thesk as a potential option.

[Have to check that Bonding out, thanks.]

Theme-wise, I think that Xoroku might be a better fit for Valkrill than Utgar. Most of Utgar's Orcs are from Grut and have blue skin, but Valkrill has the D&D green Orcs with stuff like the Death Chasers and Gothlok. If there isn't a strong reason to choose Utgar, then I'd probably place him under Valkrill so that he can fit in with the Death Chasers and their Flagbearer.

[I’m good with Valkrill, thanks again.

Thanks so much for your feedback! I’ll rework them all for October 12, and get back to you.]

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Wow! You’re so with Clancampbell on D&D ‘Scape. I think strong with a twist is what I’m aiming at, but I take your point.

I love D&DScape. More than most, I imagine.

But the kind of heroes it produced are limited in value. There is certainly a place for them in the game, but the ones we have already don't see a lot of play. It would be very easy for VC to keep pumping out more, but that's the problem. We could very easily become Fantasy Hero-onlyScape, most of which are only interesting in dungeon crawl scenarios and the occasional casual games.

[caps]

I'm a really big fan of the D&D heroes. The more I play them and tinker with them I feel that (with a few exceptions) they really nailed balance, theme, and playability. They don't get much play (again, with a few exceptions) because they nailed it *so well*. There were so many heroes (and squads) in classic scape that are just so much better than the average figure, that D&D's decidedly average and well-balanced figures feel a little meh.

As a side note, one of the interesting things about how the GenCon meta has evolved is that many of the D&D heroes become really interesting additions to an army. They can fill a role without filling it *so well* that the army becomes easy to play. My favorite example is Brandis Skyhunter as ranged support for an army. He's actually a pretty decent 90 points; but he's *just* decent.

Regardless, if VC approved every medium fantasy idea (internal or external; there are a lot of these that don't leave internal brainstorming) we would turn the game overwhelmingly into a fantasy realm, which we want to avoid.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I'm a really big fan of the D&D heroes. The more I play them and tinker with them I feel that (with a few exceptions) they really nailed balance, theme, and playability. They don't get much play (again, with a few exceptions) because they nailed it *so well*. There were so many heroes (and squads) in classic scape that are just so much better than the average figure, that D&D's decidedly average and well-balanced figures feel a little meh.

A few of them are actually quite exceptional. I used Heirloom over and over once I got him, and I know my brother had a (justified) love for Eltahale, who's also awesome.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

A few of them are actually quite exceptional. I used Heirloom over and over once I got him, and I know my brother had a (justified) love for Eltahale, who's also awesome.

Heirloom is probably one of the exceptions. The other ones that leap to mind are Eltahale, Fen Hydra, and Moltenclaw. I might pick a couple others out if I looked at the complete list.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Heirloom is probably one of the exceptions. The other ones that leap to mind are Eltahale, Fen Hydra, and Moltenclaw. I might pick a couple others out if I looked at the complete list.

I was just thinking of the Small/Medium Unique ones, otherwise, yeah, the Fen Hydra is a beast. (Well, he's a Marauder, actually, but you know what I mean.)