Grishnakh's Custom Terrain

[JC McMinis]

Hey @Grishnakh I know you are busy with your own creations, but seeing as you are the master of making printouts for buildings a request if you ever get the time. We just finishes making Doofensmirtz over in the Heroes of Fiction....should you ever get a wild hair as they say a pattern for his building Doofensmirtz Evil Inc. would be awesome.

[Grishnakh]

Originally Posted by JC McMinis

Hey @Grishnakh I know you are busy with your own creations, but seeing as you are the master of making printouts for buildings a request if you ever get the time. We just finishes making Doofensmirtz over in the Heroes of Fiction....should you ever get a wild hair as they say a pattern for his building Doofensmirtz Evil Inc. would be awesome.

That would be too funny. Unfortunately I working on my Thundarr the Barbarian play set!

Also gearing up to try and revisit my ITF rules. Not so much to change them but to simplify them and make them more accessible to people.

[Tornado]

As much as I want you to continue with buildings and ITFs, I am dying to see your Thundarr scenario.

Let me know every time you run that. It may just get me to the east coast(though somewhere closer for me would be cool).

[Grishnakh]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I am dying to see your Thundarr scenario.

Yea, me too!

I have all the pieces here on my desk. They've been gathering dust now for a while. Time, time, time. It's been a big issue of late.

One good thing is something I'm creating for the Thundarr scenario will work with superheroes.

[Tornado]

Best of luck.
Looking forward to the results.

[JC McMinis]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

That would be too funny. Unfortunately I working on my Thundarr the Barbarian play set!

Also gearing up to try and revisit my ITF rules. Not so much to change them but to simplify them and make them more accessible to people.

Its cool we are working on Ookla to go with out Thundarr in the HoF right now actually

[Grishnakh]

Originally Posted by JC McMinis

Its cool we are working on Ookla to go with out Thundarr in the HoF right now actually

You know, I saw that. Mine is a bit different since I'm going for more of an RPG feel. Ariel is done as well. Will be interesting to see what you do with her.

[IshMEL]

Originally Posted by JC McMinis

Hey @Grishnakh I know you are busy with your own creations, but seeing as you are the master of making printouts for buildings a request if you ever get the time. We just finishes making Doofensmirtz over in the Heroes of Fiction....should you ever get a wild hair as they say a pattern for his building Doofensmirtz Evil Inc. would be awesome.

I googled "Doofenshmirtz Evil Inc. papercraft building" and lo and behold someone did one:

http://toomuchtackyglue.blogspot.com...orporated.html

I downloaded it -- the scale would have to be redone, of course, but it's a start.

[Grishnakh]

Based on some recent, renewed interest in our buildings and our terrain rules perhaps it's finally time to revisit our custom creations and rules.

Some history: Our Interactive Terrain Features rules (as well as our building rules) were created back in 2011. To create them took countless hours of experimentation and countless hours of play testing by our gaming group here on Long Island. It went through a tremendous amount of revisions and rewrites to get it to the state it currently is in. The version posted here is actually the 9th version created!

Overall it's held up extremely well over the years. I've played so many games using these rules I've simply lost count. We tend to get positive feedback whenever we introduce it to new players at conventions, and at our local game store. With that said however, it can't please everyone. What one gamer likes, another dislikes.

So, after all these years, here's both our thoughts going forward. And while the positive comments we've received tend to outweigh the negative ones, we still listen to what players tell us about their experience with the rules. We're certainly not above tweaking anything to make it better.

• As I've mentioned in other threads the rules themselves are fairly simple. However, they really need to be edited down. When we originally wrote them we really wanted them to appeal to a wide range of players, so we made sure to cover every situation that our rules might find themselves being used in. The biggest concern was how to use muliti-space objects, especially in uneven terrain. The rules that we came up with work, they just give you a headache reading them. In practice we tend to play these rules on a flat, city street map anyway, so none of this ever really mattered. Still, the rules work well when, for example, you're smashing a truck on top of a building where the truck overhangs the edge.

We are also planning to eventually separate the rules from the back pages that give tips on what and where to purchase the terrain we've searched out and used. Plus some of our rules are a bit scattered through the other booklets on buildings. Things like half hexes and elevators. We'd like to consolidate all of that into one rule booklet and one terrain booklet.

• Secondly is object presentation. We originally went with cards for each type of object. That proved to be a problem and tended to slow the game down. The set up is so big table space is at a premium. Players barely have room for their army cards, let alone multiple ITF cards. With the cards, for example, players kept asking where the Fire Hydrant card was, and could they see it. That started a search for the card, which slowed the game down. So we migrated over to a single chart that every player could have access to. This really sped the game up. However, I'm still searching for a solution here. I think the chart turned some people off. Perhaps there's another way to represent these objects. Perhaps a page or two of objects, presented in a smaller version of the Heroscape cards? Similar to the pages of square cards others on this site have done.

• Next is the way the rules affect the style of play. We've found that most Heroscape players that are introduced to these rules for the first time go crazy picking up and throwing objects until there's nothing left on the battlefield to use. Only then do they close with their opponent to attack. It tends to break theme, and we hear a lot of negative comments because of this. Battlefields in Heroscape are pretty static. Once the battlefield comes alive with objects that can be tactically used it changes the game radically. Some like this, some don't. What a more experienced player starts to realize is not only can you use the terrain to attack with, but you can also deny your opponent from using it. Destroying a tanker truck at range not only does just that, it can also cause surrounding figures to take damage as well.

That brings me to mention a bit about strategy. If you throw an object at a safe distance you avoid close combat. However, if your opponent catches that same thrown item you have just given him a way to attack you back. You really have to choose who you throw objects at! If you smash with an object it causes a lot more damage, but it puts you in closer combat with your enemy. That was always the overall strategy built into the rules. On a deeper level holding an object lowers your ability to defend so a smart player can use that to their advantage. Plus, as I mentioned, destroying an object at range can hurt enemy figures as well.

Then you have players that ignore all of this terrain stuff and just charge into battle normally. This can also be used to deny a figure from using the terrain object, making them take a leaving engagement to get to the object for example. Things can get kinda wild strategically, especially in the middle of a street crowded with figures and objects. (Hulk smashes Thanos with a car, which also clips a tanker truck, which fails it's defense roll and is destroyed, blowing up in the process and hurting all nearby figures, including the Hulk. It's happen many times in our games.)

• Last, and this is the big one, is the amount of damage a thrown object and an object used in a smash attack does. Adjusting Range factors into this as well.

So here's the thing, you either factor the damage the object does on the attack of the figure using the object, or you make the attack number static for all objects, regardless of who uses it. The first example makes the Hulk a lot more dangerous, the second one makes weaker figures more dangerous. Both have their issues.

Some players have told us that our rules were way too powerful. Objects cause way too much damage. (Sometimes this is a factor of whose cards you are using. For example our custom supers tend to be a bit more powerful that those who have tried to more closely match the point spread of classic Scape, plus our custom figures can typically absorb a bit more damage) Regardless, we've recently experimented with toning them down and using static attack numbers. Here's the list:

Small - Range: 10, Attack: 1
Medium - Range: 8, Attack: 3
Large - Range: 6, Attack: 5
Huge - Range: 4, Attack: 7

What we found when we weakened the attacks was that players tended not to even use the objects. Plus it just seemed weird thematically when an angered Hulk smashes with a car and does the same amount of damage that Spiderman would do with the same car.

So we're back to the way things were originally created, attacks are based on the attack of the figure using it, modified by the size of the object being used. (We did adjust numbers a bit when we went from our cards to our chart. Not sure anyone noticed that or not but we attempted to standardize things a bit. Mainly to help make numbers easier to remember.)

So the final question to those of you that have played, or are trying these rules out for the first time is simple. How would you adjust the damage, as well as the range on these objects? (And I'm using the numbers on the chart, not the older cards.) Or, is it perfect the way it is? I'm sure we'll get a wide range of responses here, but it does make for an interesting game theory question. And who knows, one of you may see a better, different way to represent the power of these objects being utilized.

Hulk SMASH!

[BigThumbToe]

deep sigh.... I had a long response all nice and typed out and my 1 year old thought it would be awesome to hit the power button. Lets see how much I can remember. Apologies if it comes off a bit bullet pointy and less of a conversation, its almost dinner time and I want to get this posted before.
Die strain, just noticed it so haven't used it yet. I'm assuming its a roll of the dice to see if you take any damage. On skulls I'm guessing? If so, I love it. Only thing I can think of adding would be a 1 die strain to large objects but only hurts on a blank. Not very thematic as die symbols go but the odds sound alright. I like the idea of risk/reward to get that attack roll boost.
Thinking back to my group's games we rarely used the defense of the objects. If simplifying your rules is a priority than maybe grouping the defense by size instead of individual object could help clear up your chart some. Theres already a bit of houseruling with all the smaller objects everybody uses and sometimes it gets tedious going back and forth trying to remember the individual defenses. Huge and Immense are already all the same, why not find a middle ground for the lighter classes? You wouldn't have the need for all the details about height and whatnot as everybody uses different models/toys/papercraft/etc anyways. Leave in the pictures for examples of objects that belong to each class though. Even if sometimes the rules don't fit for every character, in every situation everyone is too busy having fun to care and I wouldn't think too deep into it. You've created a wonderful set of rules that has made many of groups' CityScape even better. I like to think of it as a Grishnakh Expansion. I know there was more but the wife's calling. Gotta go...

[Grishnakh]

I think I'm going to start cleaning house in this thread.....

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

I think I'm going to start cleaning house in this thread.....

Looking forward to seeing whats next. Good to see you around.