Classic League: Pod Draft- CONGRATS KEVINDOLA

vegietarian18 · #1 August 5th, 2013, 05:21 PM

Classic League: Pod Draft

Games are played using the online Heroscape interface. An explanatory video is below:

Spoiler Alert!

ROUND 1:

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ROUND 2:

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For this event, players will submit two pods. Each pod can be between 250 and 350 points, and may not contain more than 12 hexes of figures per pod. No VC, no Marvel. The combined point total of both pods cannot be more than 600 points. The pods cannot share any figures. The pods of both players are pooled together for a draft, and there is a dice off. The winner of the dice off can choose to draft first, or defer. The draft is 1-2-1 style. The two pods drafted by each player are played together against the two pods drafted by the other player in a standard kill 'em all game.

*You may not have 2 of the same unique army card in your army, therefore, if you draft 2 pods that both include the same unique army card, you may only place one on the battlefield.

Maps:

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League Details:

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Standings:
Dysole: 3-0 (W vs. vegietarian18 W vs. kevindola, W vs. greygnarl)
kevindola: 3-1 (W vs. MegaSilver, L vs. Dysole, W vs. jcustar07, W vs. greygnarl)
Heroscaper Guy 2-1 (W vs. Raider30, W vs. jcustar07, L vs. egietarian18)
vegietarian18: 2-1 (L vs. Dysole, W vs. Raider30, W vs. Heroscaper Guy)
El T: 2-1 (L vs. Greygnarl, W vs. Soundwarp SG-1, W vs. Eraguy816)
greygnarl: 2-2 (W vs. El T, FW to Eraguy816, L vs. Dysole, L vs. kevindola)
jcustar07: 1-2 (W vs. Soundwarp SG-1, L vs. Heroscaper Guy, L vs. kevindola)
eraguy816: 1-2 (FW to Knight of Day, FL to greygnarl, L vs. El T)
Soundwarp SG-1: 1-2 (L vs. jcustar07, L vs. El T, W vs. Raider30)
Raider30: 0-3 (L vs. Heroscaper Guy, L vs. vegietarian18, L vs. Soundwarp SG-1)

Sub:
1. vegie's dad

MegaSilver · #2 August 5th, 2013, 05:49 PM

Interesting tourney idea; I'm up for it!

dok · #3 August 5th, 2013, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Note: Since Heroscape rules do not allow multiple uniques in the same army and this format can force that, if two players matched up against each other share a unique figure, both players play their own two pods and there is no draft.

Soo.... 600 point format, play your own army?

flameslayer93 · #4 August 5th, 2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

players with different records playing each other.

Your assuming you'll have enough people joining in the event for this to be a viable route.

Seriously, unless your racking in 40+ people, the chances that people will be playing people with different records gets higher (see the Bi-Weekly league R4, with Dysole being the only one to have gone 3-0 and Therion being the only one to go 0-3...), unless of course you start not matching players.

Just what I figured out from my current run. ^_~

Good luck!

vegietarian18 · #5 August 5th, 2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Note: Since Heroscape rules do not allow multiple uniques in the same army and this format can force that, if two players matched up against each other share a unique figure, both players play their own two pods and there is no draft.

Soo.... 600 point format, play your own army?

Pretty much. It never came up in any of my test games of the format (~10) but it's hypothetically possible and I don't want any problems.

I doubt it comes up more then once in the whole event. It should be easy to switch matchups around and avoid it. When it does happen, it actually will different, because you often end up splitting pods with your opponent and playing your own army straight up is kind of rare.

Yeah, the last season didn't have any VC but from what I heard, GenCon practice is the only time that the main online events will not use VC, and people who don't like customs probably want to play online more than once a year.

dok · #6 August 5th, 2013, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Note: Since Heroscape rules do not allow multiple uniques in the same army and this format can force that, if two players matched up against each other share a unique figure, both players play their own two pods and there is no draft.

Soo.... 600 point format, play your own army?

Yeah, pretty much. It never came up in any of my test games of the format (~10) but it's hypothetically possible and I don't want any problems.

I doubt it comes up more then once in the whole event. It should be easy to switch matchups around and avoid it. When it does happen, it actually will different, because you often end up splitting pods with your opponent and playing your own army straight up is kind of rare.

Well, your test games notwithstanding, anyone who includes Raelin, Marcu, and Isamu seems very likely to have this rule invoked at some point. Over half of the season 8 armies had at least one of those three unique heroes.

Moreover, this rule can be exploited to some extent. If I play ratsx3, Raelin, Q9, Hydra, Krav, then any opponent who has any of those uniques is now playing against my fairly broken build without any chance to draft the ratsx3 + Q9 half or the Rae+Hydra+Krav half. They might be playing some funky build that tossed in Raelin or a Hydra to be competitive, but no dice. It means the broken army player is being rewarded for playing the broken stuff.

At the extreme, you could actually unwrap your army to exploit this, playing something like Raelin + Kaemon + Hydra + Krav + Marcu + Isamu + Otonashi+ Marro Warriors, with a couple squads of rats. With that army, you would have about three quarters of the season 8 armies covered. At that point you're almost just doing it to undermine the format as opposed to giving yourself an advantage, though, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Yeah, the last season didn't have any VC but from what I heard, GenCon practice is the only time that the main online events will not use VC.

I don't know if that's been said, but I haven't said that. What I have said is that we're not running any more reverse the whip events unless they are mimicing a Gencon format. But I haven't said the same about not using customs.

What I have said is that we try to do what people want. We had a big survey about what people liked a few seasons back, and we've attempted to use that data to inform our choices on future events.

As far as VC goes, personally I support it, of course. I am happy to see us using them in events. People have worked extremely hard to make them balanced and fun, and seeing them in use is pretty satisfying. That said, if there's a significant number of people who want a no-custom event, then I'm happy to see us run one of those, too. However, to be frank, I haven't seen any evidence that there's meaningful demand for such an event. You say, "I have seen a lot of desire on the forums for a league without customs". Personally, I've seen a few people decrying customs (generally without having looked at them closely, but anyway) but I've only seen one person say that they would play in our events but for the use of customs.

And look, one person is still a person, and perhaps he's the tip of the iceberg. And if that's the case, then I'd be willing to run some no-custom events, too. But my strong suspicion is that the majority of folks who will sign up for this event are people who also sign up for events that use customs.

vegietarian18 · #7 August 5th, 2013, 08:07 PM

There was a discussion in the Hangout where two people (out of the maybe fifteen people that post in there a lot) said that they don't play in online events with customs, and one said he would bring a friend to an online no custom event. I know there are others out there besides those people too, and giving them a chance to play in a event is the point of this. Not to compete with the official online league.

It is very satisfying to see the VC designs come out after you helped work on them. I'm involved in VC through the SoV, as you know. I'm not criticizing the custom community at all with this event. I just decided to host this event since I have the time to do so.

As for your exploit for the format, you can bring an extremely strong army to any format and do well. This format rewards those kinds of players less than a straight up tournament would, and less than a RtW tournament would. Just because you play a lot of popular figures doesn't mean you play every popular figure.

I also think every format can be exploited. I'm just trying something new and different here.

kevindola · #8 August 5th, 2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Soo.... 600 point format, play your own army?

I realize this comment was partially in jest, but it really isn't even as simple as that if you were to play your own army. After all, you have a restriction of no more than 12 hexes in a given pod, so that seriously limits the amount of 4 figures squads you would/could want to bring. Of course you could stack both pods with the same common squad, but then you are seriously eliminating the potential of having the automatic 'play your own army'. In which case you will NOT be playing your own army.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Well, your test games notwithstanding, anyone who includes Raelin, Marcu, and Isamu seems very likely to have this rule invoked at some point. Over half of the season 8 armies had at least one of those three unique heroes.

While this is indeed a high test sample size, I don't think using a Gencon RtW tournament is reasonable to use as a comparison for this tournament format. The Gencon format is not how armies will be created for this style play. I think it will be closer to a take 2 style format in the variety of armies that will be seen. (I don't know of any non-VC take 2 tournaments to get a good feel for how many times this issue would have come up though) But it's fair to say there are more varieties in armies when you have the potential to be responsible for your opponent's (or portion of) army every round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Moreover, this rule can be exploited to some extent. If I play ratsx3, Raelin, Q9, Hydra, Krav, then any opponent who has any of those uniques is now playing against my fairly broken build without any chance to draft the ratsx3 + Q9 half or the Rae+Hydra+Krav half. They might be playing some funky build that tossed in Raelin or a Hydra to be competitive, but no dice. It means the broken army player is being rewarded for playing the broken stuff.

At the extreme, you could actually unwrap your army to exploit this, playing something like Raelin + Kaemon + Hydra + Krav + Marcu + Isamu + Otonashi+ Marro Warriors, with a couple squads of rats. With that army, you would have about three quarters of the season 8 armies covered. At that point you're almost just doing it to undermine the format as opposed to giving yourself an advantage, though, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Unfortunately, I have no arguments with you here. I have a few ideas to neutralize this effect for a tournament of this nature:
1) reduce point total to 500 reducing the probability of common uniques
2) dictate 2 common uniques before forcing a play your own army, since there will still be a great amount of flexibility in your pod choices with only 1 shared unique figure in the pods.
3) toss out shared unique heroes (too drastic probably, but less so if you toss out shared unique heroes that are 20 points or less)

That being said, the tourney director shuffling matchups to prevent any common unique figures is probably just as neutralizing for the metagame I predict for this format.

The real strength to this format is playing with a broad range of figures not usually seen and guaranteeing* they will be competitive in the game by designing the other half of the army that you can guarantee* will be balanced against it. Want to play Einar Imperium competitively? Fine put them in one pod and put some Romans with no bonding hero in the other. Want to play Sujoah and spiders? Great, build that against an elf hero pod or some other deliciously low defensed heroes. Want to finally have a use for Gurei-Oni? Stack the other pod with some gorillinators and force some tough decisions.

(*guaranteed unless the same common unique hero rule forcing you to play your own army activates)

Crixus33 · #9 August 5th, 2013, 09:11 PM

To be honest I would like to see a league for just classic stuff. Personally I try to bring just classic stuff to the online league already (however I am planning on using an SoV figure in the next season). I'm not saying I don't like VC (far from that), but that I prefer playing classic figures. I think the reason for that is that I don't have all of the classic figures and so I'm not looking for anything new. I may consider joining this event and I think it could draw in some of the people who don't support customs. Way to take initiative vegie.

bobinchese · #10 August 5th, 2013, 09:24 PM

I think the online classic idea is a good one (I won't be playing this round because of college move in day, but I would have played in one earlier this summer). For the pods thing I would suggest three or four pods from each player, but you pick two for the tourny. I would also ban Isamu, Marcu and Otonashi because they're just unique filler units.

dok · #11 August 5th, 2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevindola

Unfortunately, I have no arguments with you here. I have a few ideas to neutralize this effect for a tournament of this nature:
1) reduce point total to 500 reducing the probability of common uniques
2) dictate 2 common uniques before forcing a play your own army, since there will still be a great amount of flexibility in your pod choices with only 1 shared unique figure in the pods.
3) toss out shared unique heroes (too drastic probably, but less so if you toss out shared unique heroes that are 20 points or less)

I personally don't see #3 as too drastic. If you draft two army halves that include Raelin, you can only place one of them. You decided to draft them (or you decided to draft the Raelin army first even though you know that could happen).

Are there potential weird outcomes to that? Yes. For it to get really weird, you need two armies where they have the same heroes in different halves (say, both armies have Raelin in one half and Kaemon Awa in the other half). But IMO they are much less of a corruption of the format (and certainly a less likely corruption of the format) than the rather obvious potential of playing a broken build in the hopes that you won't have to share it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevindola

The real strength to this format is playing with a broad range of figures not usually seen and guaranteeing* they will be competitive in the game by designing the other half of the army that you can guarantee* will be balanced against it. Want to play Einar Imperium competitively? Fine put them in one pod and put some Romans with no bonding hero in the other. Want to play Sujoah and spiders? Great, build that against an elf hero pod or some other deliciously low defensed heroes. Want to finally have a use for Gurei-Oni? Stack the other pod with some gorillinators and force some tough decisions.

Of course, these are the same arguments as the "bring 2" format - and were even more true in season 7, where we alternated "Army Draft" with "Pick your Poison". The finals of that event was Marrden Hounds against Gladiatrons (without Blastarons).

For a few reasons, I expect that this format will lead to more unbalanced matchups than a format like the online S7, but I agree it's likely to produce more balanced matchups than a typical double-blind kill 'em all.

It's basically about halfway between "bring 2" and a pooled draft format, with one very big exception: everything is getting drafted. If, instead, each player was bringing four ~300 point army halves, and a total of four were getting drafted, then it would pretty much be an exact split between those two formats I just mentioned.

EDIT: if you wanted to split the difference, and ensure that at least a little of both player's armies get used, then each person could bring three halves. This gives enough flexibility that it's almost impossible for someone to be railroaded into drafting duplicate uniques and not placing one.

Raider30 · #12 August 5th, 2013, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

But IMO they are much less of a corruption of the format (and certainly a less likely corruption of the format) than the rather obvious potential of playing a broken build in the hopes that you won't have to share it.

Or people could you know...not be a jerk and not bring a 'broken build' to begin with (maybe save that rats/q9/raelin/hydra 'broken build' for Gencon right Dok...

).

Maybe stick to the spirit of the tourney.

Just sayin'.

- Raider30

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