Politics, Religion, and Morality

[MegaSilver]

Thank you, D_S.

While I understand your frustation Strange_Love, oftentimes the President is not at fault of the current situation. It's mostly the fault of the former administration (especially right after his election) or Congress who ignores the President's requests. Even President Bush got blamed for things that he didn't do. (I cannot think of them right of the top of my head, though.)

[Strange_Love]

Originally Posted by Garenex

I also am listening to the debate from another (while trying to choose an army for the TTO this weekend). I shall start by stating that I am politically Republican, and this shall be the second presidential election I'll be voting in. I voted for McCain in the last election, and often wonder what would have happened...(but then Aslan's voice pops in my head, telling me "No one is ever told what would have happened.")

My initial opinion about the debate, is that I'm frustrated with both of them. They continually interrupt each other and seem to waste a lot of time not saying anything.

They just brought up gun control, and this is something I beat to death in high school. My opinion is that people who want to get the assault weapons (which are already illegal), are going to get them regardless of whether they are illegal or not. The only people whom gun control laws are going to effect are those whom will follow the laws anyway, who aren't going to go on a shooting spree. Those people need the weapons to defend themselves from those who aren't going to follow the laws.

What I feel we need is more education and training. Young people just aren't widely trained in guns as many just do not have the opportunity. If more people learned how to handle and respect the weaponry from an early age, I feel there would be less violence.

I agree they are not really saying much. They are just kind of switching places and saying "that's not what I said" or "what I meant was"

This is the second election I get to vote in. And I would rather not go vote but it is not an option with my other half.

[Ranior]

Originally Posted by Strange_Love

As the debate just mentioned (no im not watching its on in another room) gas prices. $1.79 was the average when he was elected now the average is over $3.69 a gallon.

Unemployment is up. Jobs are hard to come by. Its the holiday season and for another year families are not going to be sure if they can give their kids what they want. But if you ask some the blame it all on Bush. Well that is fine and dandy but what did your boy do to fix it in his 4 years?

Commonly things get better in America or the economy improves when a Democrat is elected. The unemployment rates got to their highest while he was in office.


And as a nerd I hate that he closed down NASA.

That gas price thing is hopelessly flawed. That 1.79 is the average(?) during the Bush years. The average right now is obviously right now. I'm not sure how you best compare things across eras, but finally I'm not convinced the president or our nation has much choice in the gas price all that much. The prices have slowly gone up throughout history, not much you are going to do to change it I don't think. At the very least though those numbers are just flat out misleading to have a real discussion on gas policies.

Unemployment is DOWN since Obama took office. It spiked during his first year, but it has slowly gone down, to the current level of being slightly lower than what he took over. It may not be as much as one would like, but it has not gone up. Jobs have been consistently added for the past 30 months now. While recovery may not be quick, speedy, or fast, the economy is improving, not getting worse.

As to what he did to fix it, there's a variety of programs and things he did, most noticeably a massive stimulus, that offered a lot of tax cuts, as well as programs to increase spending and some infrastructure improvements. He's done a variety of bills and things to offer up relief in taxes to small business and the middle class and the poor. Overall I think the policies he has pursued have aided us in getting out of the recession, and the numbers back up the economy is getting better. I think you can make a serious argument if you wish that the economy isn't getting as good as it could be as quickly, but I think it's a difficult position to support to state that Obama has made things worse.

Finally, this talk about NASA is just absurd. Last time I checked, NASA hasn't been shut down. It took a cut of about 15% or so. (Hard to find these numbers, as not all that many big news sources seem to care too much). The budget submitted to the president by the Republican controlled congress actually had a higher budget cut than what the president had suggested in his budget plan.

[jschild]

That 1.79 is a bull cherrypicked number. Gas prices crashed hard in September 2008 because of the global recession. In fact, prices have not still hit heights hit during the Bush administration (not that Bush was cause of them either).

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Make sure to select 8 years. President's have virtually no effect on gas prices and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

EDIT 1:

One of the things I dislike that he did most was be misleading. He said our troops would be home from Iraq. And he got them home. But then turned around and off they all go to Afghanistan

This is EXACTLY what Obama said he would. He said before and during campaigning his exact plan was to reduce troops and have combat troops out within a year and increase troops in Afghanistan. He never said he would draw down troops there immediately and said the exact opposite, which he did.

EDIT 2: Really, shut down NASA? Please, in discussions like this, at least stick to the facts. It's hard to have any kind of an honest debate if you make false claims.

EDIT 3: Some good breakdowns of the facts of the debate...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...n-hall-debate/

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/de...ial/2012-10-16
(Make sure to select fact check instead of all)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...6a4b_blog.html

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by jschild

That 1.79 is a bull cherrypicked number. Gas prices crashed hard in September 2008 because of the global recession. In fact, prices have not still hit heights hit during the Bush administration (not that Bush was cause of them either).

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Yeah, people quoting that gas price bullsh!te number always drives me up the wall. It just reeks of "uninformed citizen". I remember when I first heard that number. I thought, "wow... that's crazy" and I did a quick google search. In less than a minute I found a nice graph of gas prices and saw what a crock that number is. The populous needs to actively stay informed and fact check what they hear (it's incredibly easy in today's age). It might very well be the truth (as is the case here), but the context is likely much more important.

That's why these debates and campaigns always drive me insane. Both sides are cooking up numbers and trying to spin the same facts to make their side look better than the other. It's really wears me out...

[Swamper]

I really don't like either of them. None of the guys running for president right now is the leader the country needs right now.

That being said, if I could vote, I'd vote for Romney as the lesser of the two evils. Obama had his shot for four years, and I don't like the job he's done. Let's try something else and see if that works.

[William099]

I'm definately a swing vote in this whole thing... haven't had to time to watch either of the debates and am not certain where either of the candidates stand on issues, nor what the issues really are... I'll need to watch the debates and read some online stuff... its kinda refreshing coming from a blank slate without any major preconcieved ideas...

[Nukatha]

NASA scientists really know how to play the system.
Despite the budget cuts and the 'cancellation' of project Constellation, most (if not all) components of that program are actually still being developed under different names.
Maybe I'm just a selfish person who really wants to retire on a spacecraft traveling toward another star system... At the very least, I plan on working toward it.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Swamper

I really don't like either of them. None of the guys running for president right now is the leader the country needs right now.

That being said, if I could vote, I'd vote for Romney as the lesser of the two evils. Obama had his shot for four years, and I don't like the job he's done. Let's try something else and see if that works.

I'm undecided and probably won't until the actual official date as per my usual idiom but I do have to say that I'm kind of in agreement with the first half of this statement.

As for the last sentence I sort of feel that's what happens every four or eight years in our political system.

~Dysole, probably more politically cynical than he'd like to be

[Nukatha]

Personally, I'm in favor of a dictatorship/oligarchy with me at the top. Unfortunately that would require a probably violent revolution, something I don't think would be worth it.

[flameslayer93]

It's not really big or revolutionary or anything like that, but something a coworker said (in relation to cutting taxes on Rich-Folk) might deserve a mention:

"I don't know about you, but I've never gotten a job from a poor person."

[Anonymous]

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm a political junkie. I'm also a political science major and this will be my first national election. I voted in my city council election last year but that's been it.

I'm a moderate conservative. I'm a social conservative, foreign policy liberal, and a deficit hawk.

I'll be voting for Romney/Ryan this year. Primarily because of the deficit. I really like Ryan's medicare voucher program, even though I wish they would have kept the current Medicare cuts in the affordable care act instead of removing them to make their case more palatable in an election.

Democrats haven't shown a willingness to seriously tackle reforming Medicare. While I approve of the Affordable Care Act and its reduction of medical costs, whenever the topic of seriously reforming Medicare (for example, Ryan's voucher plan) comes up, Democrats use it to scare seniors into voting for them. (I understand that the Republicans do this too. For example, their claims about Obama raiding Medicare to pay for the ACA.)

The Democrats' platitudes about asking the rich to pay a little more simply can't fix the deficit. The fact of the matter is that you can't tax the rich enough to pay for the projected increases in outlays caused by Medicare and other such programs over the long-term. Obama promised to cut the deficit in half. Instead, he's run 1 trillion dollar deficits each year. I think the President and Congress missed a good opportunity with Simpson-Bowles which both the President and Republicans rejected.

I don't like Romney's tax plan unless he would be willing to close the mortgage tax break to keep it revenue neutral. I also don't like the increased military spending that he's called for. However, I think overall, even if he were able to pass these things, I think Obama would do a worse job addressing the deficit.

The important thing to remember is that neither of these guys is going to be politically able to do much of this stuff. It's looking like the Republicans will maintain control of the House and the Democrats will keep control of the Senate. So whichever candidate wins is going to face a lot of obstruction from the other side especially on the issue of the deficit and the fiscal cliff. I've been glad to see the automatic sequestration cuts and hope they go into effect. I also hope that the Bush Tax cuts expire. I think its necessary for our long-term fiscal health and with divided government it's probably a very likely possibility.