The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Dad_Scaper]

Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.

I agree. I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I agree. I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.

While I did intend to communicate this message, I also want to call attention to what I think was my bigger point: this mini, and this theme, deserve something bigger than 10 points. Try taking the mini and the theme to a higher power level, and see if you like what you find.

My 2 cents.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

I’m of the opinion that every general needs a filler! But the mechanics on this one seem weird to me.

I agree we need more fillers! And I'm okay with you finding the mechanics on this guy weird - they sort of are (and the comments here have me realizing why; gotta love the workshop). He does play really well though.

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

How do Splash Damage attacks work with Howl of Chaos? Since those attacks don’t have to *target* Carny to affect him, that may not play nicely with HoC. That seems to be one reason ranged counterstrike abilities specify them being normal attacks.

Marker-based powers don’t seem like they’d be worth it on 10 pointer, so the SoV may not be keen there.

He does pretty balanced though. Cool story about Capt America!

I've played him how the card reads - if an area attack hits him, the Howl happens!
I didn't realize that X OM powers had a point threshold or requirement (and I currently don't feel that they should). But if one doesn't like a power, I can't argue with that!

Originally Posted by Scytale

Anticipation of Violence is a lot of pizzazz for not much. As a cheap filler unit you won't be using it until endgame anyway. So it's little more than just a higher Attack value. Marker powers in general are used sparingly in VC and require some real value add to get through; I doubt a marker power would ever be supported for a 10pt filler.

Vengeful Howl of Chaos is too much to do too little. Lots and lots of preconditions and a postcondition take up a lot of card space and will rarely have any gameplay effect. It's too focused on providing theme.

Is there a reason why X OM powers are used sparingly in the ol' VC (I'm not contending this, I genuinely want to know the reasoning, so that I can possibly better follow established protocols going forward)? To me, they are just another way to get some design variety. In my mind, a 10 pointer with a base attack of 5 may be unbalanced, but commentators here have me thinking that may not be the case.

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head for his Howl - it's more theme than gameplay, and complicates the design space (though he does play really well)! Thank you for pointing that out. The workshop is awesome.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Anticipation of Violence doesn’t really bring many strategy decisions. Basically you’ll just put markers on him no question. There’s never really a reason you wouldn’t, unless you have another X order marker unit ( in which case you would have drafted poorly ). Just give him an attack of 5 and save yourself space for another ability or just have 1 ability alltogether

As Bigga said below, almost always putting the X OM on a figure that does something with the X OM is usually what those figures do. You're right that it doesn't make for many strategic decisions in-game, but I was thinking more of the strategy pre-game, when designing one's army (especially if more 10 point units existed). That's another vote for cutting the power and giving him a power of 5. Thank you!

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

I'm not at Kinseth's level of disinterest in 10 point heroes, and wouldn't mind one for each general, but I'm not interested in adding them just for the sake of adding more 10 pointers for each general. I am also getting at the point where I've seen enough that my gut reaction is "This had better be good." With that said, Carnifex isn't doing it for me right now.

My main concern is the design. Making 10 point glass cannons is decent for balance, but not for interesting designs. Isamu, and to an extent Otonashi (against Wild), already do that. While a figure doesn't need to be objectively better than another to see play, I do want it to offer something unique, and in the 10 point category I feel that space is particularly competitive.

Maybe you can put more focus into Vengeful Howl of Chaos. Right now I agree with what’s been said about it being too much flash and no bang, but having a figure designed around the theme of “If you kill me you’ll hurt too” is a lot more interesting strategically than a glass cannon. You could expand the concept to figures adjacent to him so he’s a little more useful sitting in your start zone. Though of course getting into auras is tricky because you may need to boost the points, but at the same time I’d rather see interesting higher point heroes than bland 10 point glass cannon filler.

I agree with you 100% - more 10 pointers, but they need to be really interesting (I'd even say more interesting than all other units, as they would theoretically be being used the most). While I find this fella interesting, I do recognize that others do not. I would argue (for the sake of arguing) that neither Isamu or Otonashi fit the glass cannon archetype though. Isamu is more of a jack of all trades (hits decently, defends decently, moves well), while Otonashi is just Johnny shenanigans. Carnifex would bring something new to the table (a filler that stomps around with 5 attack no matter what (well, if you pumped him)), but if he lacks pizzaz in your eyes, that is valid! Thank you Bigga.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Lots of valuable input here. I just want to add that I think that forcing a price of 10 onto this unit is limiting, and hurting, this design far more than it’s helping. Try putting a 50 there instead, abandon the use of the X Marker, and consider the other feedback you’re getting here. You might like where you land.

I also want to call attention to what I think was my bigger point: this mini, and this theme, deserve something bigger than 10 points. Try taking the mini and the theme to a higher power level, and see if you like what you find.

My 2 cents.

Interesting points, @Dad_Scaper ! Do you often look at a miniature and think to yourself, "what point cost should this be, and what could I see it doing?" I usually work backwards from that - think of a cool power or theme, and then try and find a mini for it, and then flesh it out/go from there.

After considering what others have said, I do see that Carnifex just doesn't have the it factor in his current iteration. And I have to admit, although he does play really well and I would be happy to have him marching around in more than just my in-house games, he never did get me as pumped as the other 10 pointer I have submitted to the SoV (or my brother's, for that matter).

I'll shelve him and his powers for now, maybe tinker with him in the near future, and see what I can come up with. Thank you everyone!

[Dad_Scaper]

I think you are wise to pull the plug here, Dewk, but you asked a couple of questions that might serve our readers, so I'll answer them anyway.

Originally Posted by The Dewk

I would love to know why you feel this way, as I feel the complete opposite - the 10 point slot is stale. 95% of the time, if one has 10 points to work with, one picks Isamu (as we all know, the only other option is Otonashi, and she's really only good for shenanigans). I love having choices. I love when the core of my 500 point army is fleshed out, and I've got 120 points left - do I bring one of the dozen+ heroes that cost 120, or do I bring a couple of 60 point squads, or do I do a combination of those things? Having options that do different things and have different strengths is awesome.

That's a reasonable opinion to have, and it appears that PK shares it. That's ok! But it's also ok to say that "10 point filler" is not a niche that needs to be filled. It is not the responsibility, some might say, of the creators of the canon to make tournament army composition e-z mode. You don't *need* to have access to an array of fillers, like books on a library shelf, to make your army composition easy. You just need to do the best you can with what you have in your format.

This other way of thinking about it has the benefit of giving us - including you - a relatively free hand as designers. After all, if the group of "fillers" is stale, then that says to me that there should be more 15 & 20 point units, too, because sometimes those are the points left over at the end. I refuse to accept that we have an obligation to fatten the bottom end of the power curve just to make it easier to build armies. That does not sound like fun, as a designer. Let me make the best designs I can, and we'll see where they end up landing w/r/t cost.

I'm of the mind that we are not in the business of making army composition easier. I don't feel like we owe the community a boatload of 10 and 20 point units so people can dispense with Isamu and Marcu.

On the other hand, if you show me a custom that *needs* to be 10 points, then we can talk. I really liked Johann Graybeard, as an older fighter with one last heroic act to give. And he needs to be 10 points or so.

There are others on both sides of me. Some would say "no more 10 pointers at all," for their own reasons, and others - like PK - apparently believe there should be a complete set. I can't speak for them, or for anyone else but me, but my own feeling is that if you're going to make a 10 pointer he better be darned good as a custom to justify consideration at an extreme price.

The same is true at the high end, of course. We gave a lot of consideration to pricing a unit above Jotun, and some of us didn't want to do that. But we decided that it was ok, because the theme and the mechanics demanded it. Same as Graybeard at 10.

My own preference is that people don't aim at 10. Design your designs, and if one happens to land at 10, then know that there will be extra scrutiny.

Originally Posted by The Dewk

Interesting points, Dad_Scaper! Do you often look at a miniature and think to yourself, "what point cost should this be, and what could I see it doing?" I usually work backwards from that - think of a cool power or theme, and then try and find a mini for it, and then flesh it out/go from there.

No, I never start with price. Let me explain.

I looked at your mini and at your theme and thought, "This should not be such a weenie." Johann Graybeard is an old man. Isamu is thematically fragile, as is Otonashi. This guy looks like a demon and has demon-like powers. He deserves more than to be relegated to the sad club of The Cheapest Filler.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

That's a reasonable opinion to have, and it appears that PK shares it. That's ok! But it's also ok to say that "10 point filler" is not a niche that needs to be filled. It is not the responsibility, some might say, of the creators of the canon to make tournament army composition e-z mode. You don't *need* to have access to an array of fillers, like books on a library shelf, to make your army composition easy. You just need to do the best you can with what you have in your format.

This other way of thinking about it has the benefit of giving us - including you - a relatively free hand as designers. After all, if the group of "fillers" is stale, then that says to me that there should be more 15 & 20 point units, too, because sometimes those are the points left over at the end. I refuse to accept that we have an obligation to fatten the bottom end of the power curve just to make it easier to build armies. That does not sound like fun, as a designer. Let me make the best designs I can, and we'll see where they end up landing w/r/t cost.

I'm of the mind that we are not in the business of making army composition easier. I don't feel like we owe the community a boatload of 10 and 20 point units so people can dispense with Isamu and Marcu.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. We are in agreement about a lot of things.

I'm not sure I follow where you speak about army composition and "easy mode" though. Currently, it's as easy as can be - I've got 10 points to fill, I choose Isamu. Options make army building harder and more fun. Last year, for one of the Utah Monthlies, my brother had gotten his army down except for the last 50 points. We spent weeks emailing back and forth weighing the pros and cons of using various units - should he toss in Me-Burq-Sa? A pair of Chainfighters? Marcu and Guilty? And it was a blast! I don't know if others find building the perfect army for the format put forth for them as fun as my brother and I do, admittedly.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by The Dewk

Is there a reason why X OM powers are used sparingly in the ol' VC (I'm not contending this, I genuinely want to know the reasoning, so that I can possibly better follow established protocols going forward)? To me, they are just another way to get some design variety. In my mind, a 10 pointer with a base attack of 5 may be unbalanced, but commentators here have me thinking that may not be the case.

It's something that can easily be overdone. It's also overly contentious if overused; you only get one 'X' order marker, after all. It also carries with it the baggage of taking away the bluff, which is an additional cost that should not be taken lightly.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I don't see the need of another 10 point filler hero.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I am not a fan of 10 point fillers coming through the SoV, personally. I'm not sure how many more we need.

I would love to know why you feel this way, as I feel the complete opposite - the 10 point slot is stale. 95% of the time, if one has 10 points to work with, one picks Isamu (as we all know, the only other option is Otonashi, and she's really only good for shenanigans). I love having choices. I love when the core of my 500 point army is fleshed out, and I've got 120 points left - do I bring one of the dozen+ heroes that cost 120, or do I bring a couple of 60 point squads, or do I do a combination of those things? Having options that do different things and have different strengths is awesome.