C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Seriously, I have been well and truly called out. I, too, have less time for this than my impatience demands. The best I can do is try to make my battle reports more useful - for Delta+ when I am Host, and C3V/SoV, C3G, etc., over all.

This little contretemps has caused me to back off from the absolute nature of my protest, but somehow freed me to play Q9 without the usual guilt.

[Foudzing]

Time to dust off this thread.

Originally Posted by dok

Wow, I am way past due for an update here. Here's some first drafts before I deal with editing the links in the OP. Comments are welcome.

First, adjustments to existing rankings:

Augamo B+ -> A-: Augamo has proven to be a formidable foe with an answer for most matchups.
Cathar Spearmen A- -> A: They can be brought down by massed ranged fire or by bonding heroes soaking up the spear hits, but there's no denying the power of the Spearmen.
Quahon A- -> A: Nilfheim's toughness and maneuverability still makes him the stronger choice overall, but Quahon is close enough to get an A. When you are rolling hot for LBSA, big Blue is tough to beat.
Frost Giant C+ -> B-: he's not that bad.
Martial la Hire B -> B-: OM efficiency makes things hard on any melee hero in this point range that doesn't bond.
Morgoloth B->B+: Cheap, fast, hard hitting. Yes, the Hydra exists, but he's good. B+
Wolves of Badru B- -> B: Morgoloth drags them up a little more.

Go update OP, I think everyone agree on those. I'd like to see Frosty at B, but it's a step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by dok

Deathstalkers B- -> B: The Deathcommander/Deathstalker build is tricky and high-risk, but it can roll a ton of dice.

I think Deathstalkers shoud stay B-. They're weak in the competitive meta and the synergy does not help them much, it's too expensive and risky.

Originally Posted by dok

Brimstone: Tricky to manage but a nice alternative to Othkurik in the price range. B

I think everyone agreed on B-. In my opinion ranking him more than C+ is nonsense, but I can live with B-.

Originally Posted by dok

Kantono Daishi: Ninja Ulginesh is not so shabby. B
Shiori D->B- easily the biggest beneficiary of Kantono.
Ninjas of the Northern Wind C+->B- also a beneficiary
Kumiko C+->B- also a beneficiary
Otonashi C+->B- I just think Otonashi belongs here, really.
Moriko D->C Moriko still costs too much.

I think everyone agrees. The ninja army is more effective than what I thought. I'd even give B+ to Kantono.

Originally Posted by dok

B-11 Resistance Corps: A ranged squad of Evar Scarcarvers is remarkably effective. A-

Yes

Originally Posted by dok

Grigor and Rogirg: A lot of points, and Krug exists, but they can do some damage. B

No. Way too expensive for their firepower. C+ maximum in y opinion.

Originally Posted by dok

Varkaanan Quickblades: Special attacks are nice. So is high defense. B+
Varkaanan Swiftfangs: The early strike force that establishes board position for the Varks. B+
Varkaanan Darkclaws: The big bruisers are deadly in cleanup for the Varks. B+
Varkaanan Greyspears: The engine that makes the Vark build go. A-
Arktos: A powerful boost to the squads in life, and great on any ranged squad in death. B+
Bahadur: The big bruiser of the faction. B+
Manauvi: The weakest of the Vark heroes can still be quite useful. B

Yes for everything except Manauvi which is almost garbage (B-/C+). I'd put Arktos A- too because he can be played in a Kravs+Rae+Arktos+Greyspears+rat build, and this build is strong.

Originally Posted by dok

Quorik Warwitch: A ranged flyer with a defensive power is devastating in the right matchup, if underwhelming in others. B+
Sir Orrick: A cut below most other human champs, but still solid. B
Azurite Warlord: a great big hitter addition to the many, many armies he bonds with. B+
Akumaken: If all you have is low-attacking melee squaddies, weep. Manageable aside from that. B

I think everyone agrees.

Originally Posted by dok

Ebon Armor: The jury is still out on the effectiveness of the animata, but the potential is there. B

I have the feeling that all they do is reviving. Taking good turns with them is to difficult against a good opponent. B-

Originally Posted by dok

Tomoe Gozen B- -> B: Animated Samurai armor, anyone?

Yeah good.

Originally Posted by dok

8th Infantry Pathfinder: Dust off Capt. Varan; he's got his running buddies. B+

Hmmm no. Honnestly having to use Marching Orders to move these guys are too much of a downside. On most maps, this stategy will give you a horrible map control, and of course it's unplayable against AOE. I think these guys are good only on maps which are not played in competitive anymore. B-

Originally Posted by dok

Gorillitroopers: versatile, powerful, expensive. Time will tell if they can justify the price. B

They are good with Laglor but yeah they're a bit too much expensive at my taste, and special attacks are now very common. B is okay tho.

Originally Posted by dok

Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep: Plenty of hitting power and staying power. B+

Honnestly from what I saw I think these guys are far away from top tier melee squads. I prefer HSB in almost every matchup. And there isa ton of anti-melee stuff now. B

Originally Posted by dok

Bloodburst Thrall: perhaps the strongest Thrall yet, but let's see someone prove it. C+

I don't think people played Thralls since your post but I think we can rely on Theoryscape here, his stats and powers are just way better than other Thralls. B-

Originally Posted by dok

Crypt Guardian: Tough, interesting synergies, but still slow and short on activations. B-
Sudema C- -> C: Certainly helped by CGs, but by how much?

Not by much, one Crypt Guardian activated per turn is not enough to protect Sudema, C and B- are okay tho.

Originally Posted by dok

Knights of Blackgaard: A 4-figure squad with 4/4 stats is nothing to sniff at, even at this price. B

Well 3xBlackgaard+Incendiborgs are a scary army, but it's pretty much the one and only competitive army with them and I've the feeling it's more because of Incendiborgs.

Originally Posted by dok

Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior: Ranged flyers are automatically dangerous. How easy will the aura be to use? B+

I think we have the answer: Impossible. B because range + fly +
double attack is always cool.

Originally Posted by dok

Emperor Andask: Taelord at a discount? Or too hard to use? B

Second answer, useless and/or too hard to use in too many matchups. I even prefer Taelord to be fair.
B-/C+

Originally Posted by dok

Major J15: The combination of powers gives J15 lots of options. B+

Swiss army knife for less than 100 points, same as Heirloom. A-.

Originally Posted by dok

Hoplitron B->B+: now they have a formidable champion to work with.
Rygarn: Adds versatility and a good engame hero to his armies. B

I think we all agree on both of these things.

[dok]

I'm happy to hear more input; I will update the OP this weekend.

It is definitely hard to get a second wave of good attacks with the Ebon, but the first wave, plus lots and lots of blocking, plus a surprise 2 or 3 attacks of 4 later in the game, is not too shabby. I think B is fair.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

I'd like to put in one last defense for Emperor Andask. Taelord may beat him aura-wise, but the Emperor is a ranged flier. The aura can be not bad if you're rolling big melee attacks, like Minion of Utgar, for example. Kyrie Supremacy is nice too, it increase some chances of auto-kills with Runa and Atlaga. He can be less useful than his true potential a lot, but a ranged flier is always useful... Maybe a B- at lowest, I don't think he's in the C range.

[Foudzing]

Other changes I'd like to see:

Capt John Varan B+ -->B-: I never saw him being effective. Purple Heart is impossible to pull off and th special attack is too situationnal.

Arashara Goshiri B+ --> B-: Extremly overrated even the players who play her extremly well (not me) are rarely rewarded. The 50% odd to miss is too much of a downside in competitive.

Nnah Scirh Cultist B+ --> A-: More versatile than what we can think by looking at the card, and very strong against a big chunk of the meta.

Command Courrier B --> B-: Never saw those guys usefull by any means. They are used as meat shield but they're bad at it.

Tomb skeletons B- --> C+: They're just incredibly bad. I never saw them win a single game.

Armoc Vipers B- --> B: They finally have a good bonding hero.

Deepwyrm Drow C+ --> B- They're not that bad.
Dzu-Teh C- --> C+ They're not that bad.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Tomb skeletons B- --> C+: They're just incredibly bad. I never saw them win a single game.

I doubt this will improve your perception of them but I beat Blastatrons x3, Dünd, Sudema, Command Courier, Otonashi with Tomb Skeletons x5, Skull Demons x4 in Season 12. I also won the other side of the matchup FYI.

~Dysole, who thinks Tombies are a fair bit niche

[Shiftrex]

Tomb skeletons are really cool. I just wish we had a giant skeleton general for them now ^^

[TheAverageFan]

TAF's worthless opinion:

Tomb skeletons are bad. Even for 40 points no synergy and poor move makes them too hard to play. I'd cough up an extra 10 points for Goblins every time. I thought Cyprien's bio said his skeletons were fast.

I'll also agree that Ashara Goshiri seems way overpriced. No matter how I look at it there's just no way I'd ever be willing to spend that much on a frail figure with a "game-changing" ability--especially one with quotes over it.

I must say I did try out an army of Ebon Armor paired with Vikings/Knights, with the spirits going onto the Armor. They can be quite dangerous, but they're tricky with OMs and many abilities bypass their reanimation. I completely ruined a Ninja/Ebon army at a local tourney with Marrden Hounds. They're kinda hard to use to their fullest potential.

The biggest offender in my opinion is Brimstone. He's. Not. Good.

~TAF

[Dysole]

Cutters are much better than Tombies (they're one of my favorite units). Tombies can be boosted by the Warden. That I tend to view the Tombies as more of a counterdraft unit or something I'd bring in a take 2 than something I'd bring to any kind of double blind tournament. They aren't awful but they do feel very difficult to use well.

Goshiri might be a titch overpriced and her power might suck when it fails but as someone who has played a fair amount of C3G let me just say that figure movement is amazing. The ability to throw a valuable support unit into a hole and then have a bunch of Romans/Band assault the unit can not be underestimated along with a lot of other uses she has. She's still not as good as a number of other warlords but I think her ability is far more game changing than any warlord besides NGS and maybe Marcus.

Brimstone is easily the worst dragon but I think he's got some fun uses. He might not be higher than C+ though.

~Dysole, who loves playing goofball units (I have brought all of the units listed above to a tournament)

[betawolf36]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

TAF's worthless opinion:

Tomb skeletons are bad. Even for 40 points no synergy and poor move makes them too hard to play. I'd cough up an extra 10 points for Goblins every time. I thought Cyprien's bio said his skeletons were fast.

~TAF

The Skeleton's of Annellintia are Cyprien's skeleton's. And it was his Skeletal Cavalry that was swift.

I don't think the Tombies are that bad. I've used them with Skull Demons and Death Knights to decent effect since I first won against Romans with that army. They've won a handful of games. I think they're fine where they are. I wouldn't be moving them up any, though.

[TheAverageFan]

Oh yeah, that's true I guess. Where are those Skeleton Cavalry guys then? Perhaps one day, C3V/SoV...

~TAF

[MegaSilver]

Agree with Foudzing that Frosty should be B.

I have played Pathfinders in a couple of tournaments, and I feel that they should be B as well. They are solid, but board control is not their area of expertise. If they can force their opponent to come to them though, they are really strong. You have to know how to bounce OMs around between their heros and themselves to get the most out of them, though.