Update, Rocket Racer, Black Cat, Hydroman, Calypso, Cloak

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

Next Avenger

I would change Golden Mace Smash to remove the marker altogether. You already state that it can only be used once per round so the marker is unneeded. Also the ability itself doesn't seem thematic... Why would Hercules only get to attack with his mace once per round? what does his regular attack represent then, punches? Who punches when they have a giant mace to attack with?

I would change the ability like so. It does exactly the same thing yours does but makes more thematic sense.

Mighty Swing
Once per round, when attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

This way he is always attacking with his Golden Mace. But once per round he may swing the weapon with 2 hands!

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Combat Challenge And "The Gift"

I would reword the text to:

Combat Challenge And "The Gift"
Figures engaged with Hercules can only attack figures that have the Combat Challenge And "The Gift special power. When rolling defense dice against an attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

This way you don't make this design frustrating to play against. Players will already be upset if they roll 0 skulls but knowing that you get to do a wound on average to them afterword will upset them more. With the counterstrike text added they will know what to expect going in.

The previous text makes it very difficult to understand. Technically you are supposed to roll defense dice even if the opponent rolled 0 skulls so that abilities like counter strike can still hit. So if you used your wording do you no longer roll defense dice of 7? and now only roll 2? Adding the Counterstrike text simplifies the power.
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Indestructible

This power is just strait up to powerful. It unbalances the game. There are many designs out there that depend on automatic wounds or use d20 rolls in their special attacks as part of a mechanic. This power would make all of those designs worthless.

I would advice trying this instead.

Indestructible
If an opponent chooses Hercules for any special power and rolls the 20-sided die, you may subtract 10 from the roll. Hercules is never destroyed without first taking enough wounds to be destroyed.

This lets him ignore half of the d20 attacks against him. It also makes him immune to auto destroy powers including those of molten lava.
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If you make changes like these he should come out to be about worth his current points, maybe 10 more. He would be worth more than that but he lacks mobility and range.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

Nice, although comparing him to Abomination I think 370 might be a bit too much for him. With a 5 Move and no movement power, the relative difficulty of getting him into the fight compensates for his higher defense.

Also, in the combat challenge power I think you meant to say "attack dice," not "defense dice."

This card as written is worth way more than 370. With 7 defense he will be very hard to hurt with any lower point cost designs, which combined with Indestuctable makes him immune to about 70% of drafts. The only way to beat this guy point for point is to field another heavy hitter. That is a small window. Add in the auto skull once per round and I think as written he is worth around 400.

[Sherman Davies]

Indestructible's really nice, but at 7 Defense, 8 Life and 370 points, with Hercules up against six squads of Marro Stingers I'd still put my money on the Stingers to win most of the time.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

Indestructible's really nice, but at 7 Defense, 8 Life and 370 points, with Hercules up against six squads of Marro Stingers I'd still put my money on the Stingers to win most of the time.

Placing a unit against the best counter is hardly a good way to cost a design.

I'd say with 1.5 skulls on average and a large penchant for whiffs The key here is simply to charge adjacent to the group and hope for the automatic skull on a whiff. With 2.33 shields on average I'm sure his defense will hold out long enough to earn his points.

[Sherman Davies]

I was addressing the idea that the only way to deal with Hercules was with another heavy hitter. That said, Marro Stingers wouldn't necessarily be the best counters - I can imagine plenty of solid ranged or melee squads that could handle Hercules, given his single attack per turn. I wouldn't even be surprised if C3G has stuff in this price range which could reasonably take him on, assuming Drewman-chu intends this custom to fit alongside C3G's.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

I was addressing the idea that the only way to deal with Hercules was with another heavy hitter. That said, Marro Stingers wouldn't necessarily be the best counters - I can imagine plenty of solid ranged or melee squads that could handle Hercules, given his single attack per turn. I wouldn't even be surprised if C3G has stuff in this price range which could reasonably take him on, assuming Drewman-chu intends this custom to fit alongside C3G's.

I could have been more clear as well it seems. I meant that when trying to cost the design it is important to look at more than just what can take him out, but also what cannot.

While he is susceptible to the standard range like most ground pounders I think he is very much designed to ignore melee figures, and those who feature more than static stat powers on their cards.

[Drewman-chu]

Thanks for the input guys. My intent with Hercules was to create a heavy hitter to go toe to toe with Hulk, Thor and the rest and I can see from your comments he still needs some tweaking.

Mighty Swing
Once per round, when attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

This way he is always attacking with his Golden Mace. But once per round he may swing the weapon with 2 hands

Great idea, Chief I will go in that direction. I also think this could be a crowd control power that most Heavy hitters have. Thoughts?

Combat Challenge And "The Gift"
Figures engaged with Hercules can only attack figures that have the Combat Challenge And "The Gift special power. When rolling defense dice against an attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

I didn't want to just use Counterstrike power but wanted something more thematic for Hercules. The "Gift" is Hercules getting others to fight him by him punching them in the face. I was trying to find a way to portray this in gameplay. Ideas?

Indestructible
If an opponent chooses Hercules for any special power and rolls the 20-sided die, you may subtract 10 from the roll. Hercules is never destroyed without first taking enough wounds to be destroyed.

Idestructible is just supposed to stop easy 20-sided die kills and wounding ex Magneto Throw. I will consider the subtraction method on the rolls but it may be simpler as is. I think this power should be used only for only for incredibly powerful characters. Juggernaut is the only other on I can think of right now.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

I also think this could be a crowd control power that most Heavy hitters have. Thoughts?

I think with slight variation you could work out a way to allow him to attack all adjacent figures but he loses some attack dice.

Like so.

Drop his attack to 5 and give him this instead of the other Mighty Swing.

MIGHTY SWING
Before attacking with Hercules, you may choose to either:
• attack any or all figures adjacent to Hercules, rolling each attack separately; or
• add 3 to Hercule's Attack number this turn.

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

Combat Challenge And "The Gift"
Figures engaged with Hercules can only attack figures that have the Combat Challenge And "The Gift special power. When rolling defense dice against an attack from an adjacent attacking figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

I didn't want to just use Counterstrike power but wanted something more thematic for Hercules. The "Gift" is Hercules getting others to fight him by him punching them in the face. I was trying to find a way to portray this in gameplay. Ideas?[/quote]

Yeah after suggesting that I realized that with a full blown counterstrike (and his 7 defense) he would be dishing out more wounds with his defensive ability that with his offensive ones. The wording is just so clunky here. I'll have to think about it. It is just so busy of an ability. If this, check that, then roll this, if that, then this. Kind of deal. There has got to be a simpler way to do this mechanic you want.

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

Indestructible
If an opponent chooses Hercules for any special power and rolls the 20-sided die, you may subtract 10 from the roll. Hercules is never destroyed without first taking enough wounds to be destroyed.

Idestructible is just supposed to stop easy 20-sided die kills and wounding ex Magneto Throw. I will consider the subtraction method on the rolls but it may be simpler as is. I think this power should be used only for only for incredibly powerful characters. Juggernaut is the only other on I can think of right now.[/quote]

This one still gets me. This power is just way to big for Hercules' britches. Think of all the powers that will not work on this guy. Now imagine in the comics if Hercules ignored all those powers when attacked. There would be riots in the streets with geeks and comic nerds running everywhere screaming "the writers have gone mad!"

[Drewman-chu]

This one still gets me. This power is just way to big for Hercules' britches. Think of all the powers that will not work on this guy. Now imagine in the comics if Hercules ignored all those powers when attacked. There would be riots in the streets with geeks and comic nerds running everywhere screaming "the writers have gone mad!"

I know he wasn't always portrayed in the comic this way but he is supposed virtually unkillable. The is the quote from the Official Handbook "Although he can be wounded in battle, he cannot die by any conventional means and has a rapid healing rate." So based on that, I could see maybe leaving the immunity to 20-sided kill rolls but change the wounding part. On the other hand I still think it could work as is, because how many Cg3 cards have 20-sided die power as their main threat? Also there is still a loop hole to exploite in in would only prevent 20 sided die powers that destroy or wound characters. So there is still many ways to handle Hercules.

[ibechief]

46% of designs feature d20 rolls... So this power takes those designs and reduces the effectiveness of those drafts that could wound or destroy you.

That's nearly half of the cards.

Also remember that almost every character worth more than 200 points could features the words "cannot die by any conventional means"

I think you have a good idea of what your doing here so I'll not push anymore for it to be changed. I just wanted to give you some perspective on it.

The last thing I'll say is look here at Captain Marvel.



He comes with Glyph of Nega-Bands




He has much less life, attack, defense and he only reduces the d20 roll by 4... and he is 400 points! That indestructible power that you have is worth 100 points alone. I'm still thinking that without changes this design is worth over 400+

But I wont pester you about it anymore
Keep up the good work!

[Drewman-chu]

I think you have a good idea of what your doing here so I'll not push anymore for it to be changed. I just wanted to give you some perspective on it.

I am always looking for input and other viewpoints. It really improves the card making process. It is very difficult to cost out powers so the more viewpoints is always good. It's tough to find that balance without doing extensive playtesting.

The last thing I'll say is look here at Captain Marvel.

Great example! This card has a similar power which helps. I will try to rework the power along those lines. I wonder if there is equivalent to the Indestructable Power on a CG3 card? I know that they came up with new Lava rules to fix Lava issues. I can see why Hercules could be worth more points when compared to C.M. but it is also a little be apples to organges too. C.M. has range, flight and a automatic shield which account for a lot of that point total. I have C.M. in the works that I will post soon. He won't be 400 pts.

But I wont pester you about it anymore
Keep up the good work

I consider your help and input invaluable and would never think it's pestering.
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[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

Great example! This card has a similar power which helps. I will try to rework the power along those lines I can see why Hercules could be worth more points when compared to C.M. but it is also a little be apples to organges too. C.M. has range, flight and a automatic shield which account for a lot of that point total. I have C.M. in the works that I will post soon. He won't be 400 pts.

The auto shield represents a converted bump to defense of 3. Since on average 3 shields will give you 1 shield.

So just look at Captain Marvel as having 8 defense instead of 5. With the automatic skull on Hercules once per round it is as if he has more attack than 7 as well. So they are comparable there. Though attack is worth more than defense point for point. Since it is more likely to roll a skull than a shield per die.

The range is surely a benefit as is the flight But I do not think they amount to the huge difference in points, after you consider that your design features Indestructible and Captain Marvel only gets to reduce d20 rolls by 4.