Are the 10th Bad Guys?

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I don't think post-modern fiction works that way, though. Think about the most popular television shows of the modern era: The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead, etc. How many of these really have the "good guys" as the protagonists, even? (You could argue for the Walking Dead cuz at least they're not zombies, but some of the humans are real dirt bags).

They are all the bad guys, IMO. It's sinful human nature, at its worst. On our own, we spiral down from bad to worse.

[Evar-Scarcarver]

Can I just take a moment to bask in the fact that slightly less controversial questions asked almost anywhere else on the internet would have resulted in grammatically questionable name calling a few posts in?
But here at Heroscapers.com, everyone very eloquently discusses different philosophy points pertaining to the entire history of our planet, because of a board game.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

The job of my Heroscape Christian Soldiers is to take control of as many enemy units as possible, make them declare Christ is their savior, and then kill 'em quick before they can change their minds. [I was a Christian Fundamentalist until age 21, and took my responsibility to do all I could to keep everyone I met from going to Hell very seriously.]

More currently, they're all killers in my hands. They're all b-b-b-bad to the bone.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Owlman

Define "Bad".

As a Christian, there are no "gray" areas to me. There is "White" (God/Jesus). and everything else is "Black" to me. (Sin/Evil/Anything that is not of God or against Him or His laws.) No one can do enough "good" to earn their way to favor with God or humanity, despite what all the super hero movies might lead you to believe.

Ergo, in the end, we're all in the same in the same boat. We're sinking, and without the saving grace of Jesus, we're in serious trouble. So it is best not to judge others, I find, fictional or real.

(Also, those Canadians who do believe the Confederates were all a bunch of slave driving racists, are un-educated. There were many Christians who sided with the Confederate army, (I.e. Stonewall Jackson comes to mind) as they felt the Union was oppressing their freedoms.)

Bad = Amoral.

Your specific view as amoral may differ on a few fronts than mine but I would be willing to bet we agree on most of the key points (I'm guess we would disagree on the morality of choosing whichever or even no religion). As @kolakoski said, they committed murder (even if they were soldiers) so there is a level of evil right there.

I'm more concerned about how we discuss the narrative that plays out (and that we discuss it at all). I agree that blanketing the Confederates as racist is a mistake. But maybe so is painting all your evil elves Black. Even your statement that God is "White" and Evil is "Black" can carry a message I know you don't intend.

I suppose if Utgar is EVIL then anyone who fights against him are Good. But I still find it interesting that Einar is a "turn coat" with variable alliances and the 10th are part of his army. I doubt the designers put this much thought into it. I still think these ideas are worth looking at, since the reveal beliefs we carry that we may not be aware of (Like that the British are bad).

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Owlman

Define "Bad".

As a Christian, there are no "gray" areas to me. There is "White" (God/Jesus). and everything else is "Black" to me. (Sin/Evil/Anything that is not of God or against Him or His laws.) No one can do enough "good" to earn their way to favor with God or humanity, despite what all the super hero movies might lead you to believe.

Ergo, in the end, we're all in the same in the same boat. We're sinking, and without the saving grace of Jesus, we're in serious trouble. So it is best not to judge others, I find, fictional or real.

(Also, those Canadians who do believe the Confederates were all a bunch of slave driving racists, are un-educated. There were many Christians who sided with the Confederate army, (I.e. Stonewall Jackson comes to mind) as they felt the Union was oppressing their freedoms.)

Sooo, you see the world as Batman does?

As a Christian, I must say as well, everything and everyone's grey. There's good and bad in everyone. Some people are Light Grey, others are Dark Grey. Most people of the world try to do good, I think, but as you say, we're all sinners. But really, I think your post may be a bit much for this thread, IMO.

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Bad = Amoral.

Your specific view as amoral may differ on a few fronts than mine but I would be willing to bet we agree on most of the key points (I'm guess we would disagree on the morality of choosing whichever or even no religion). As @kolakoski said, they committed murder (even if they were soldiers) so there is a level of evil right there.

I'm more concerned about how we discuss the narrative that plays out (and that we discuss it at all). I agree that blanketing the Confederates as racist is a mistake. But maybe so is painting all your evil elves Black. Even your statement that God is "White" and Evil is "Black" can carry a message I know you don't intend.

I suppose if Utgar is EVIL then anyone who fights against him are Good. But I still find it interesting that Einar is a "turn coat" with variable alliances and the 10th are part of his army. I doubt the designers put this much thought into it. I still think these ideas are worth looking at, since the reveal beliefs we carry that we may not be aware of (Like that the British are bad).

Well, yes and no to the 'soldiers committing murder" part. Yes, physically soldiers over the centuries have committed murder, but again, coming from a Christian stand point here, all of us have committed murder in our hearts, according to the Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew.

Morality is a whole different door, IMO. Without God, I would ask is there REALLY moral and amoral? Evil/Good? I would argue no. For Ethics to work, it requires a Divine being, in this case, God. There are two options here, way I see it:

A) Either God does indeed exist, and He is the ultimate moral authority. All His creation is subject to Him, and ought to worship and glorify Him, for He is the ultimate Being. Nothing is greater than Him. He sent His Son to suffer and ultimately die a horrible, agonizingly slow death, so that we might live. Long live the true King!

or

B) God does not exist, and therefore, without God, a rational argument could be made that any and all things are permitted. After all, you only live once. Best to grab as much as you can, regardless of consequence to others, to live the happiest and ultimately most fulfilled life as possible. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die mindset. In the end, we are all gonna die, so what does it matter...?

Again, from my Christian perspective, regarding Utgar being Evil, and those fighting him are Good, I'd say those that are fighting for him are fighting for the side of good. Not inherently "good" themselves." Only Adam and Eve were good before the Fall. After them, none were good, except Jesus.

I think we can at least both agree that there is indeed Good and Evil in this world, though, when it boils right down to it.

[IAmBatman]

I always assumed since Heroscape was the "battle of all time" that it was meant to represent a Heavenly war on Hell to save all living souls for eternity. The kyrie are a clear angelic analog and Utgar does seem to be based on demonic forces. Of course, many of the combatants, even if they are "saved" through the glory of the wellsprings, are still human in their nature, thus the in-fighting and factioning.

Theologically,
Bats

[kolakoski]

Well met!

We've wandered pretty far afield from the OP. Continuing a bit further, I believe that no single group has a monopoly on spiritual wisdom. Also, those who believe in karma or reincarnation, and even professed Atheists, have a moral sense, and a sense of outrage at greed and injustice.

[IAmBatman]

Of course atheists have morality! They still have souls.

[Targanth]

During the American Civil war, the individual combatants were following orders. There are families that had children fighting on both sides. I have ancestors that fought one one side and after the war had a sister that married a man that had fought on the other side.

In Heroscape, I always hoped that there would have been a Zulu army to also combat the 10th Reg. I don't consider the 10th to be bad guys, nor do I consider the 4th Mass to be bad guys, nor the Zulus if we would have gotten them.

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

There's good and bad in everyone. Some people are Light Grey, others are Dark Grey. Most people of the world try to do good, I think, but as you say, we're all sinners. But really, I think your post may be a bit much for this thread, IMO.

This is the same conclusion my friend and I came to when trying to figure out how to handle alignment in our RPG. Instead of alignment you have a personality and what we call a Law/Chaos number.
Law/Chaos is a sliding scale of 0 to 100 that represents your level of grey, where 0 is pure Chaos and 100 complete Lawfulness. In fact we named the middle ground where most PCs end up as The Grey Zone.

There is no good or evil, only choices.

[wriggz]

As far as morality without out God goes, there are multiple philosophical systems (Mill, Kant, Rawls, and others) that work fine. To be honest I bet we mostly go by what is in our bones (Souls for Religious, Genes for Secular), sprinkled with the teachings and examples of everyone around us.

As far as we are all sinners based on the fall, From my reading of christianty it seems that the original sin was washed clean by the act of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice. Based on that reading christians (humans) are not born with sin, but rather have to navigate their lives without incuring new sin. This way babies, those dead before Jesus died, and the morally good but non christians still can be saved.

I think we all agree that the Confederate Army was not evil any more than any other army. However, the popular belief is that they were fighting to continue slavery. For many people the idea that the Soldiers arn't evil translates into the idea that what they were fighting for was not evil either. Is supporting the soldiers the same as condoning their cause? These ideas can get into your subconscious and impact actions without you even realizing it.