The Book of Morsbane

[dok]

I was just having a discussion somewhere else that made me wonder... exactly when does one choose whether to use a d20 bonus? Does one choose before or after seeing the result of the roll? I post this question here because it seems like Morsbane presents pretty much the only practical case where this would ever come up.

Say you have a figure on the glyph of Lodin, or you are using some custom that adds to d20 results. You attempt to use Rod of Negation on a Marro Warrior, or perhaps a Krav Maga Agent, and you roll a 19.

Normally, this is a great result, because your +1 bonus means you've jumped from negation to instakill. However, I could easily imagine cases where I would rather negate all four Marro Warriors or all three Krav Agents, rather than kill just one.

The question is: can you choose to not apply the d20 bonus after you see the result of your roll?

[ollie]

Originally Posted by dok

The question is: can you choose to not apply the d20 bonus after you see the result of your roll?

I think the answer is no. I back this up with... well, nothing at all. Unless you count my gut. Which you shouldn't.

[Shockma Ranyk]

Originally Posted by ollie

I think the answer is no. I back this up with... well, nothing at all. Unless you count my gut. Which you shouldn't.

Funny thing, my gut disagrees with your gut and says yes. I should probably get it checked out, I don't think it's supposed to be capable of speech...

[Aldin]

Since the power doesn't specify, I think you have to allow the player with the potential bonus the leeway to choose whether or not to apply the bonus AFTER seeing the result.

~Aldin, buying a pig in a poke

['Scaper94]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Since the power doesn't specify, I think you have to allow the player with the potential bonus the leeway to choose whether or not to apply the bonus AFTER seeing the result.

~Aldin, buying a pig in a poke

Actually, I think you have to use a marker/destroy the chosen figure if you roll the specified number. "...If you roll a 16-19, place a marker on the chosen figure's army card." It never says "...you may place..." so I'm guessing that you are required to use up a marker. You can choose wether or not to use the ability, but you can't choose wether or not to use a marker.

[nate the dawg]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Since the power doesn't specify, I think you have to allow the player with the potential bonus the leeway to choose whether or not to apply the bonus AFTER seeing the result.

~Aldin, buying a pig in a poke

I agree with this. Though there is no specification, the wording ("may") leads me to think that the application of the (Lodin) bonus is up to the player, per the spirit of the rule. That is, the glyph of Lodin is supposed to be an advantage (I presume), so it makes more sense to me that its application would be at the player's discretion.

Good question, dok.

[fomox]

Originally Posted by dok

I was just having a discussion somewhere else that made me wonder... exactly when does one choose whether to use a d20 bonus? Does one choose before or after seeing the result of the roll?

Interesting.

While the rules of the Lodin glyph don't explicitly state when the decision must occur, I think you choose to add after the die roll (it's 19 + 1, not 1+19). This is certainly the way I've played units like Mogrimm and the Gladiators, and the way I've seen the Lodin glyph used when rolling initiative, etc.

A nice thing about deciding after is that for the vast majority of rolls (including initiative) the +1 or +3 doesn't matter, so deciding after the roll means less time deliberating over decisions that won't matter. This speeds up the game and is, I think, preferable to being forced to decide before.

The wording of the Lodin glyph is that you may add, which implies discretion. I think the intent is that you can add it if/when you like, and I don't see any advantage to saying it has to be before.

[flameslayer93]

Ahh, I love it when old stuff gets mixed with new stuff(Lodin=Wave 1. Morsbane=Wave6).

From the FAQ:

If I have a figure on the Glyph of Lodin, is adding one to the
die roll optional?
Yes. The keyword in the Glyph of Lodin wording is “may”. You
may add one to any 20 sided die roll while standing on the Glyph
of Lodin. If you think it helps you by not adding the one, you
may choose not to.

Emphasis in bold. So, from all of the official sources(Morsbane Card, Lodin's Card, FAQ) sources, you may use either the Negation Power -or- the Instakill.

As far as a custom goes, I feel it is up to the custom. Assuming it uses the phrase "may add # to the 20 sided die", I feel it follows the Lodin rule. If it does not say "may", then you must apply the bonus +1 no matter what. In the case of Morsbane and Lodin, you will be allowed to give leeway. In the case of Morsbane and Haduc, you will be allowed to give leeway.

I would like to think of it this way, the FAQ almost suggests Morsbane in that particular entry, as he is one of the only units who might not need the +1. Other examples include Kee-mo-shi and Toxic Skin, the Marrden Hound Plague, and obviously Marcu.

Now then, I am not official in any way, but I hope this explain my view on this topic.

Edit: Although I should be pleased with my answer as is, I'd like to point out the same point with SBN here. (Scroll down)

And again with SBN here.

[dok]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

I would like to think of it this way, the FAQ almost suggests Morsbane in that particular entry, as he is one of the only units who might not need the +1. Other examples include Kee-mo-shi and Toxic Skin, the Marrden Hound Plague, and obviously Marcu.

And there are times you would rather lose initiative, as well, even if you have Dagmar/Mogrimm/Capuans. You also could want a low roll to avoid circuitry overloading your own figures with Repulsors.

What sets Morsbane apart from those five examples, and what made me bring this up here instead of just in a rules thread, is that Morsbane is the only case where you need to see the result before you know whether you want to apply the bonus. In those other cases, you know going into the roll whether you want a high result or a low result. With the Morsbane-versus-MW/Krav example, there's a case (15->16) where you really want to apply the bonus, but another (19->20) where you don't. That's a unique situation - it has no parallel to initiative or toxic skin or any other d20 roll.

Nobody is questioning that "may" means that you have a choice whether or not to apply the bonus. That's pretty standard Heroscape language implying choice. The only question was when you have to make that decision. Setting aside minor issues of bluffing (e.g. I want to lose initiative but don't want the other person to know that) and time efficiency (as fomox described), this case with Morsbane is the only time that it truly matters whether you make the decision before or after the roll.

That said, I'm happy with what appears to be the clear majority opinion that you get to decide after the roll. That makes as much sense as anything, it adds a touch of strategy, and it's not as though Morsbane is overpowered either way.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by dok

And there are times you would rather lose initiative, as well, even if you have Dagmar/Mogrimm/Capuans. You also could want a low roll to avoid circuitry overloading your own figures with Repulsors.

What sets Morsbane apart from those five examples, and what made me bring this up here instead of just in a rules thread, is that Morsbane is the only case where you need to see the result before you know whether you want to apply the bonus. In those other cases, you know going into the roll whether you want a high result or a low result. With the Morsbane-versus-MW/Krav example, there's a case (15->16) where you really want to apply the bonus, but another (19->20) where you don't. That's a unique situation - it has no parallel to initiative or toxic skin or any other d20 roll.

Nobody is questioning that "may" means that you have a choice whether or not to apply the bonus. That's pretty standard Heroscape language implying choice. The only question was when you have to make that decision. Setting aside minor issues of bluffing (e.g. I want to lose initiative but don't want the other person to know that) and time efficiency (as fomox described), this case with Morsbane is the only time that it truly matters whether you make the decision before or after the roll.

That said, I'm happy with what appears to be the clear majority opinion that you get to decide after the roll. That makes as much sense as anything, it adds a touch of strategy, and it's not as though Morsbane is overpowered either way.

Well, if you want to discuss it like that, then you should already know what you want before you roll.

Put it like this, you aren't trying a Rod of Negation to kill a single krav when the team is full. When you roll for Rod of Negation, and you control Lodin, you will already want the Negation Effect. In either case of choosing before or after, its evident that you want the Negate.

Your asking a valid question, dok, but if you are using Morsbane on that particular turn and target that particular figure, then you know what your trying for. Your question is just really without purpose it seems(and that's ok, if you want to be a rules stickler, but its still not necessary).

Cheers.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Well, if you want to discuss it like that, then you should already know what you want before you roll.

Put it like this, you aren't trying a Rod of Negation to kill a single krav when the team is full. When you roll for Rod of Negation, and you control Lodin, you will already want the Negation Effect. In either case of choosing before or after, its evident that you want the Negate.

Your asking a valid question, dok, but if you are using Morsbane on that particular turn and target that particular figure, then you know what your trying for. Your question is just really without purpose it seems(and that's ok, if you want to be a rules stickler, but its still not necessary).

Cheers.

Nah, dok has the right of it. If I have to decide before, I have a 25% chance of negation (either 16-19 or 15-18 ) and either a 5% or 10% chance of killing (20 or 19-20). If I decide after, I have a 30% chance of negation (15-19) and a 5% chance of killing (20).

~Aldin, playing the odds

[fomox]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Your question is just really without purpose it seems(and that's ok, if you want to be a rules stickler, but its still not necessary).

Cheers.

No, it was a legitimate question. If it did matter when you had to decide, it would change how you play morsbane. (If you had to decide before, you'd usually pick to add, and occasionally (5%) it would kill when you'd have prefered a negate.)

But again, the consensus is that you have the discretion of adding it when you want. I don't think anyone has ever actually thought of this question during a game before, but perhaps the custom dok is thinking of would have to deal with it more often.