Delta: latest updates and discussion

[Grey Waves]

Fwiw I think the current pricing of Nilf/Quahon and their relevant bonding squads is pretty much spot on. Spiders are more underpriced in classic scape than greenscales are, so the spiders going up by 10 compared to the greenscales' 5 makes sense. I also highly disagree with whoever said that there's no reason to use Nilfheim when Quahon exists - Nilfheim has more move, slightly better survivability, and much better consistency than Quahon, and if I have the choice to run either of them as a non-bonding dragon in an army, I'm picking Nilfheim over Quahon 8 times out of 10. If anything, I feel like Quahon is actually very slightly overpriced at the moment - I'm not convinced that Spiders x5 Quahon is 50 points better than GSWs x3 Nilf, and to me the gap between Nilf and Quahon as a solo dragon is closer to 10 points than it is to 5. Ultimately this is kind of nitpicking though, as a 5 point drop when you already cost 225 points doesn't really change a whole lot.

I'm too tired to fully elaborate on this but I also agree with ROTV Raelin's increase to 135 points - she makes some matchups absolutely miserable if the opposing army doesn't have a good way of killing her. My Red Mantis Blade Dancer army was one of the strongest builds in Season 44 but one of the weakest armies in the field in Season 48, and a large part of that was due to the high prevalence of Raelin in the latter tournament. Only having a 20 point gap between the 2 Raelins also felt a bit weird - except for certain swarm-based armies, I always felt that you were better off paying the extra 20 points for the bonus defence dice. Having a 35 point gap between the 2 is much more appropriate imo

[caps]

Re: Raelin the other thing about her is that she helps the worse armies--the ones that are bad because they don't have good survivability. The need for Raelin in those armies is reduced in Delta, but I still wouldn't ban her in that format.

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@Chris Perkins what about Re: Deepwyrm Drow?

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by caps

@Chris Perkins what about Re: Deepwyrm Drow?

For now, all I can really say is that they're in discussion for the next update.

[caps]

Colorado events are now allowing the released AoA units (via proxies). I expect we won't be the only group to do so. Has Delta discussed incorporating them into future updates? I imagine it would complicate things a little (the value of certain Unique Squads in VC and the value of Crimson Widow seem quite intertwined, for example).

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by caps

Colorado events are now allowing the released AoA units (via proxies). I expect we won't be the only group to do so. Has Delta discussed incorporating them into future updates? I imagine it would complicate things a little (the value of certain Unique Squads in VC and the value of Crimson Widow seem quite intertwined, for example).

To answer the direct question: I don't remember us having a direct discussion. If we did, it wasn't very long.

If we did have said discussion though, my initial view (& vote) would be against any AoA inclusion. My view is that it's a massive undertaking & hassle for little gain. As you alluded to, we'd have to consider re-pricing everything for meta-changes from those AoA units (probably not that many would be affected, but we'd have to think about all of them to know which ones are). And updating 3 lists is harder than updating 2 lists. I'm much more concerned with finding & fixing leaks in the existing prices than trying to add new units in there (admittedly, marvel was an exception, in part because it was easy, and in part because it helped make Heroscape.org work better). It would also be much tougher to get real-world game data as feedback (which we get from classic & VC scape all the time), so I'd have less confidence in the final product of Delta.

Also, I'm not sure that it's delta's place to determine what units should be tournament legal or not. VC is so accepted & intrinsic to the community that Delta VC makes sense to me. I suppose it's possible released AoA units could reach that point eventually (although I'm skeptical), but they certainly aren't anywhere near that point at present.

That being said, I'd think that using Delta pricing with the released AoA prices would be more balanced than standard pricing with the AoA prices, so that combination seems a reasonable one for any local scene that wants to integrate AoA units in somehow.

My 2 cents anyways.

[NoLoveLost]

Originally Posted by dok

We’re pleased to announce the November update to the Delta Pricing system. There are 31 cards with price adjustments, plus we’ve added Delta prices for all the Marvel heroes.

You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and I imagine the builder on heroscape.org will be updated within a few days.

Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:

Good stuff is still really good, continued

Spoiler Alert!

Raelin 120->135
Nilfheim 220->230
Quahon 215->225

Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.

The Raelin bump hurts Nilf a good bit, but the whole package costing 25 more feels reasonable, honestly. With greenscales going down in the last update, and deservedly so, the best uniques need to bear more of the cost. The same goes for Quahon - I have a hard time justifying more than a 5 point gap between the best dragons, even with spiders nerfed in Delta VC.

The oops files, and/or faction reapportionments

Spoiler Alert!

Deathcommander Mark 3 140->120
Deathwalker 8000 120 -> 115
Deathwalker 9000 125 -> 120 (110 Delta Classic)

Arktos 100 -> 110
Bahadur 125 -> 110
Manauvi 100 -> 90

Empress Kiova 70 -> 75
Einar Imperium 110 -> 105

Only a few cards (Deathcommander, Kiova, and Bahadur) are actually bouncing back towards their classic price, but in each case they are part of a larger reassessment of the faction. Kiova is taking a bit more of the price from the now-cheaper Imperium. Arktos has been the value hero pick for the Varks for a while, so we’re adjusting based on that. The Deathborg faction has remained weak in Delta, so we’re giving a discount, and that discount gets even steeper for 9k in classic, where his range boost is much less significant.

Make Mine Marvel!

Spoiler Alert!

Silver Surfer 320 -> 370
Captain America 220 -> 250
Thanos 360 -> 390
Doctor Doom 245 -> 210
Red Skull 190 -> 175

The other 5 Marvel heroes enter Delta at their standard prices.

Metagame Beneficiaries

Spoiler Alert!

Azazel the Kyrie Warrior 150 -> 175
Warriors of Ashra 55 -> 60

Cheaper Death Knights and a generally more leveled-out meta made Azazel too good of a value engine - he almost always came back once and that’s all it takes for him to earn his points. Warriors of Ashra benefit from less prevalent special attacks and a more melee-friendly meta.

Common Discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Minions of Utgar 110 -> 105
Protectors of Ullar 105 -> 95
Sentinels of Jandar 110 -> 105

Nottingham Brigand 35 -> 25
Obsidian Guards 75 -> 65
Swog Rider 25 -> 20

The Kyrie squads (including the previously mentioned Einar Imperium) all take a small discount. Nottingham Brigands take a small discount due to underperforming. Obsidian Guards are still priced for their performance on VW maps but at 65 they are still probably conservatively priced. Swong Riders have been a consistent underperformer for a long time on modern maps and are probably overdue for a discount.

Unique discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Agent Skahen 115 -> 100
Syvarris 105 -> 100
Nakita Agents 110 -> 105

Elite Onyx Vipers 80 -> 70
Kozuke Samurai 90 -> 85
Ninjas of the Northern Wind 100 -> 100 (70 in Delta Classic)

Migol Ironwill 100 -> 95
Parmenio 75 -> 65

Garrett Burns 60 -> 55
Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM) 160 -> 155
Sharwin Wildborn 90 -> 80
Shurrak 160 -> 145
Siege 110 -> 100
Sir Dupuis 125 -> 95
Sonlen 150 -> 140
Torin 100 -> 95

Skahen, Syvarris, and Nakitas all take a slight discount to put their prices more in line with the Krav/Airborne/Marro Warriors. The three most underperforming unique melee squads all take a price cut, with the NotNW’s cut only applying in classic when Kantono isn’t around. Parmenio is a fair bit worse in Delta where there’s no underpriced Raelin to discipline, and Migol suffers by comparison to the other Dwarf heroes. The rest are a series of smaller discounts (well, other than Dupuis’s) for some relatively weak standalone heroes.

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Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this

Super late to this, but you are a GOD

[Shadowking]

Are Marro Warriors worth 35 points more than Stingers? They are better overall but have downsides VS Stingers too (1 less attack dice, unique being the primary); just not sure that they are a full 35 points better - they also cost a little more than the 10th and 4th as well for other comparisons and I’m not sure 1 unit of either isn’t better than Marro Warriors at 110. I’m not saying their current pricing is nesc. incorrect but interested to hear the reasoning behind the 110 cost.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

Are Marro Warriors worth 35 points more than Stingers? They are better overall but have downsides VS Stingers too (1 less attack dice, unique being the primary); just not sure that they are a full 35 points better - they also cost a little more than the 10th and 4th as well for other comparisons and I’m not sure 1 unit of either isn’t better than Marro Warriors at 110. I’m not saying their current pricing is nesc. incorrect but interested to hear the reasoning behind the 110 cost.

So, to be frank, I don't think the direct comparison between common squad v. unique squad is the best example, because it forces a comparison while either assuming just 1x of the common (obviously terrible) or assuming some fractional value of a larger common build (x3 - x5 probably).

That being said, I'll try to answer the direct question as best as I can.

The thing you have to keep in mind with MWs is that they have quite a few end-game situations where they just auto-win given enough time (because of water clone). Almost any mele hero, < 2x of a common mele squad, <= 1x of a ranged common squad, a single-attacking ranged hero, etc. all just suck into them at the end of the game if the MWs player knows what they're doing. The same can't really be said for having 1 squad of stingers / 4th / 10th left at the end of the game. A top player having MWs left at the end of a non-timed game is a nightmare for anyone, unless they happen to have a specific hero or squad that counters MWs particularly well (which there aren't many of). MWs are also better as a pure-opening unit because they can retreat and heal, which none of the commons can.

If you're going to try a direct comparison with a common squad, I think you have to assume 1.5x of that common (or something around there). So, how do you feel about MWs v. 6 4th / 10th or 4 Stingers?

I think a more interesting question, though, is a comparison of the various unique squads, since they tend to fill much more similar types of roles (lead-off, clean-up, range behind a mele screen, etc.).

When MWs were 100 points, I think they were almost an auto-include over any of the other 110-120 point unique squads. I won the 1st Delta OHS event with Quahon, Spiders x4, MWs, and most games weren't particularly close. That army was underpriced quite a bit, with Spiders also being cheaper then, but MWs are just so good in a build like that because the primary offense (in that case, Quahon) can target the figures that MWs don't have a near auto-win against in the late game, setting up the favorable late game situation for you a ton.

Personally, I think our overall point differences between the unique squads are pretty good right now; I know I've been tempted to use most of them in various delta armies over the past 4 months.

But, all that being said, even if MWs are slightly overpriced (which I don't think they are)...that's way better than them being underpriced, given how broken of a unit they can be in the right situation.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

So, to be frank, I don't think the direct comparison between common squad v. unique squad is the best example, because it forces a comparison while either assuming just 1x of the common (obviously terrible) or assuming some fractional value of a larger common build (x3 - x5 probably).

That being said, I'll try to answer the direct question as best as I can.

The thing you have to keep in mind with MWs is that they have quite a few end-game situations where they just auto-win given enough time (because of water clone). Almost any mele hero, < 2x of a common mele squad, <= 1x of a ranged common squad, a single-attacking ranged hero, etc. all just suck into them at the end of the game if the MWs player knows what they're doing. The same can't really be said for having 1 squad of stingers / 4th / 10th left at the end of the game. A top player having MWs left at the end of a non-timed game is a nightmare for anyone, unless they happen to have a specific hero or squad that counters MWs particularly well (which there aren't many of). MWs are also better as a pure-opening unit because they can retreat and heal, which none of the commons can.

If you're going to try a direct comparison with a common squad, I think you have to assume 1.5x of that common (or something around there). So, how do you feel about MWs v. 6 4th / 10th or 4 Stingers?

I think a more interesting question, though, is a comparison of the various unique squads, since they tend to fill much more similar types of roles (lead-off, clean-up, range behind a mele screen, etc.).

When MWs were 100 points, I think they were almost an auto-include over any of the other 110-120 point unique squads. I won the 1st Delta OHS event with Quahon, Spiders x4, MWs, and most games weren't particularly close. That army was underpriced quite a bit, with Spiders also being cheaper then, but MWs are just so good in a build like that because the primary offense (in that case, Quahon) can target the figures that MWs don't have a near auto-win against in the late game, setting up the favorable late game situation for you a ton.

Personally, I think our overall point differences between the unique squads are pretty good right now; I know I've been tempted to use most of them in various delta armies over the past 4 months.

But, all that being said, even if MWs are slightly overpriced (which I don't think they are)...that's way better than them being underpriced, given how broken of a unit they can be in the right situation.

Right, yeah that makes sense; so you basically the idea is that you are going to still consider them at 110 in armies that are good at creating the kinds of end-game scenarios that the Marro Warriors are really good at winning consistently? The Krav seem more consistently good in the average game scenario for 5 more points and Airborne seem better when the RNG doesn’t wreck you (but aren’t super consistent), but neither can create the same end-games as Marro Warriors can for sure.

[quozl]

These numbers aren't just pulled out of the air. They are playtested at every Delta tournament.

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by caps

Colorado events are now allowing the released AoA units (via proxies). I expect we won't be the only group to do so. Has Delta discussed incorporating them into future updates? I imagine it would complicate things a little (the value of certain Unique Squads in VC and the value of Crimson Widow seem quite intertwined, for example).

This is an interesting discussion. I didn't realize the community considered them as real units, especially considering how much pushback I've seen against proxies in the past. I don't think Lincoln tournaments will allow AoA units, they didn't seem fully tested and even changed during the campaign. If they were allowed, I think with Chris that Delta as-is with AoA would be fine.

[caps]

Originally Posted by ryguy266

This is an interesting discussion. I didn't realize the community considered them as real units, especially considering how much pushback I've seen against proxies in the past. I don't think Lincoln tournaments will allow AoA units, they didn't seem fully tested and even changed during the campaign. If they were allowed, I think with Chris that Delta as-is with AoA would be fine.

The dev team released a statement saying that with a few erratta the cards were considered "done." They finalized them as the campaign was wrapping up.

As for whether they are "real units," they are as real as VC units, if not more.