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  #1  
Old October 24th, 2012, 04:44 PM
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Custom Competition Balanced Unit Costs: Delta/Delta+

NEW THREAD FOR PLAYTESTING AND DELTA ACTION CLICK HERE



You have yourself some prime HeroScape!

HeroScape Delta is an alternative unit cost system for Heroscape. This system is designed so you can play with the official figures the way they were written, but with an alternative cost system so all units are equally competitive.

HeroScape Delta+ is also an alternative unit cost system. This sister system is designed so that every credible figure, official and custom, can be played as written, but with an alternative cost system so all units are equally competitive.

The point costs of the same official units differ between Delta and Delta+ because Delta+ has the figures costs adjusted based on custom units as well as their standing officially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post

I just don't want casual readers, or people interested in perhaps trying Delta for the first time, to think that it's only half-baked, or not 'tested' enough to be worth it. It's totally functional and totally worth it as it is, right now. It will just be even slightly MORE worth it, as a few prices here and there are adjusted.
Here's how to get started:
Spoiler Alert!


Important Note

We who are truly pushing for HeroScape Delta are not pushing it as a fix. It is not a fix to anything. It is a point customization idea that we wish everyone would try once in a while.

FAQ

Spoiler Alert!


The Current Points

This is our starting block, where every unit will be tested from for the 2012-2013 season. This season will end when Winter ends.

Each season is a normal season. The units who are played will be updated every Winter and Summer, as the results come in.

The short hand for the current prices is (First letter of the Season, either 1 for Northern Hemisphere Winter, or 2 for Northern Hemisphere Summer).(Iteration of the points, which is the number of iterations there has been).(The year it was implemented)

So for the Summer of 2014 rules, it would be 2.3.14.

Point Cost Spreadsheets

Delta 1.1.12


Delta+ 1.1.12

_______________________________________________


DELTA/+ ARMY BUILDER

_____________________________________________________
How We Function

Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________
How to Propose Changes

Spoiler Alert!


Delta Quote of the Now
Quote:
Originally Posted by belrix View Post
There were many competitive games and mostly rare armies. 5 of us who practiced together the week before the Tourney ran 3 armies that would never be at a tourney without Legacy/Delta. I'll take 60% new armies over rehashes of Glads vs. Gruts.
Our Goals

Spoiler Alert!


Regards,
The X Marker
HeroScape Delta Director

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Last edited by The_X_Marker; December 13th, 2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Changed how the seasons are marked to be fair to southern Hemispherers
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  #2  
Old October 24th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Well met!

From a recent post/blog:

P.S.: I am pleased that there is renewed interest in the Legacy point system, as evidenced by the recent discussion, and the formation of the Legacy Committee. I will suggest to chas (and Taeblewalker, if he attends) that we use Legacy for this game, and will stipulate its use for games I host for the foreseeable future.

I don't know how much "official" testing/reporting will go on, but, to the extent possible, you have my full support. I will suggest to the rest of The Gang of Four that we use Legacy when they are hosting, but whether they choose to do so is, of course, up to them.
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Old October 24th, 2012, 06:30 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

So your plan is to keep the winter 2010 Legacy Points intact and not "tweek" them until after the winter of 2013?

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  #4  
Old October 24th, 2012, 06:45 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Cornpuff never went past that in his point values. I believe that it is the best place to start off. The updated points will be presented in the beginning of spring of 2013. Which is also the end of the upcoming winter.

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Old October 24th, 2012, 08:39 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Hmm, interesting to see my Unit Debates method being used to compare new vs. old. Novel, indeed.

Carry on.
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  #6  
Old October 24th, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Well met!

From a recent post/blog:

P.S.: I am pleased that there is renewed interest in the Legacy point system, as evidenced by the recent discussion, and the formation of the Legacy Committee. I will suggest to chas (and Taeblewalker, if he attends) that we use Legacy for this game, and will stipulate its use for games I host for the foreseeable future.

I don't know how much "official" testing/reporting will go on, but, to the extent possible, you have my full support. I will suggest to the rest of The Gang of Four that we use Legacy when they are hosting, but whether they choose to do so is, of course, up to them.
Thank you for your support. It may not seem like you 4 are a lot, but if each of you plays just one 500 point army with Legacy, assuming an average of 4 unit types per army, it would be a play test of 16 units per game. That adds up, almost exponentially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Hmm, interesting to see my Unit Debates method being used to compare new vs. old. Novel, indeed.

Carry on.
Ah, so it was you who invented it! Wasn't sure, but it couldn't have been done without your own novel idea. Credited!

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Last edited by The_X_Marker; October 24th, 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old October 25th, 2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_X_Marker View Post
Cornpuff never went past that in his point values. I believe that it is the best place to start off. The updated points will be presented in the beginning of spring of 2013. Which is also the end of the upcoming winter.

Sent from my Kyocera Loft.
Just wanted to know how long the posted legacy points are valid... don't want people playing with too many different versions.

Of those of you who have been playing with the 2010 Winter legacy points... do they need to be "tweeked" very much? How much of a change do you think there will be left to do?

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  #8  
Old October 25th, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeman View Post
How much of a change do you think there will be left to do?
I can't say, but the system is designed to have changes every season. No unit should be reduced or increased by more than 10 points at a time, and more than 5 will be rare.

I haven't played yet, but I have a few armies I want to try at 500 points:

3x spiders 105 105
2x Wyvern 190 295
Estivaria 75 370
Venoc Warlord 125 495

Real value: 520

They will be going up against this army:

3x Marrden Nagrubs 105 105
Wo-Sa-Ga 125 230
Su Bak Na 150 380
Warden 816 70 450
Eldgrim 35 485

Real Value: 505

I am also going to pit two other armies against eachother.

2x Knights of Weston 160 160
Sir Gilbert 125 285
2x 4th Mass 170 455
Kyntela Gwyn 20 475

Real Value: 405

Against:

3x Greenscales 70 210
Nilfheim 215 425
James Murphy 75 500

Real value: 440

So that is two popular armies and two less popular armies of today's metagame. I'll have to see how they each do. Notice how the popular armies gained points, while the less popular armies lost points.

There are so many ways to make armies, and so much to be conscience of when doing it this way, keeping the valiant bonus for the 4th meant I had to come up short, despite wanting 3x KoW so bad. Nilfheim and the Greenies are higher too, so it depended on the last points for a decent ranged option. The last unit in each army was mostly an afterthought, as some type of filler or support.

As for how long it took, about as long as making any army under the Vanilla system, just had the whole cost table in front of me. It is a lot easier than you would expect.

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Last edited by The_X_Marker; October 26th, 2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 02:04 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

It might be interesting to have 1 rather good army go against 1 rather crummy army using Legacy points. Just to see what sort of gap there is.

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Old October 27th, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_X_Marker View Post
............... No unit should be reduced or increased by more than 10 points at a time, and more than 5 will be rare.
.
Good to know, thank you .... I can support that type of "tweeking".

The balance of the game from when it came out and with through out all the releases/waves should be praised. The Heroscape design team did a GREAT job. I would hate to see the " Legacy Committee " deviate from that. However if the "Legacy Committee" remembers: Cornpuffs original reason to come up with the legacy points we and the game should all be in good shape.

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  #11  
Old October 27th, 2012, 02:19 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
It might be interesting to have 1 rather good army go against 1 rather crummy army using Legacy points. Just to see what sort of gap there is.
That is to be done as well. So far, there seems to be no difference in playing any of the armies, as compared to how they were played under Vanilla.

But wow! The spider army rocked so far! They get +2 move, +1 attack with positioning, and just roll through with the Wyverns. This seems to be their optimal army.

I'll post reports and such as soon as possible, as well as the unit comparisons.

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Old October 28th, 2012, 02:37 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

So glad to see this revived!

My gaming group in Berkeley played extensively with the Legacy pricing system. In fact, many of them never played with anything other! (Mainly because our group of 7-8 always played solely with my 'Scape stuff, and I instituted Legacy early on. Many of them learned the game with Legacy pricing.)

Our general opinion was that it may have been a bit conservative. I know others who played with Legacy felt the same. It didn't do quite enough to lift the bottom-of-the-barrel units up.

At some point, CornPuff produced a second, revised, version of his Legacy pricing, which he called Legacy: Evolution. It was more radical. Probably a bit too radical.


So... I'm glad to see that you're starting with the earlier (less extreme) price list.
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