Drafting Treasure Glyphs

[Strack9]

Updated first post for the new Treasure Glyphs.

[killercactus]

Has anyone done any(more) playtesting with this? I really think I'd like to start invoking this into tournaments. It can be an easy way to get some of the underused figures into use.

Also, the Brooch of Shielding isn't on here (grants disengage). Some figures off the top of my head that would really benefit from disengage:

Iron Golem
Wyvern
Deathwalker 7000
Ogre Warhulk

Also - I understand that Braxas is pretty strong with an Invisibility Cloak, but I think 120 Points is way extreme. It only lasts for one round and it doesn't prevent melee attacks (which is a big deal since Braxas' range is only 4). Add in that it's not very strong with many other figures and I think it's worth 10 or 20 Points max.

[chas]

When treasure glyphs were introduced, I thought it was a really great simple way to boost up figures that don't get used because they are weaker. Therefore, I'd suggest not allowing Army Cards over, say, 100 points to use the glyphs!

Good work, and + Rep

We are now considering this for a future game here in NYC. Some details have to be worked out. For example, the cost should be generic, not tied to the hero who gets it. Some limits should be imposed, although I think a glyph should be transferable from one hero to another, according to normal rules. One member is going to cost out the glyphs individually, and we'll be posting the results.

[Strack9]

Originally Posted by killercactus

Has anyone done any(more) playtesting with this? I really think I'd like to start invoking this into tournaments. It can be an easy way to get some of the underused figures into use.

Not much by me, unfortunately. My competition around here is typically my 2 kids (5 and 7 yrs old), and I usually give them a big handicap so any anecdotal evidence I get is weak at best.

Originally Posted by killercactus

the Brooch of Shielding isn't on here

it's at the upper half with the Permanent glyph.

Originally Posted by killercactus

I understand that Braxas is pretty strong with an Invisibility Cloak, but I think 120 Points is way extreme. It only lasts for one round and it doesn't prevent melee attacks (which is a big deal since Braxas' range is only 4). Add in that it's not very strong with many other figures and I think it's worth 10 or 20 Points max.

My initial estimate was based on Braxis burning about 6 squaddies for free. Perhaps I've overestimated the cost for this glyph, but I think Braxis still might benefit more than 20pts. I'll put Braxis at the top of my playlist to see if that suspission holds any water.

Originally Posted by chas

I'd suggest not allowing Army Cards over, say, 100 points to use the glyphs!

Eureka! If one goes with this Idea it solves the Invisible Braxis question and the Regenerating Q9 problem. A low flat rate like +20 pts/figure would fit fine then. I'd probably add a "if you drop it, it's destroyed" clause to prevent Isamu from being the delivey boy for a 100+ pt. fig.

[chas]

DRAFTING TREASURE GLYPHS
by Chas

Rules

1. Each player may draft up to 1 Permanent and 1 Temporary Treasure Glyph (TG).
2. Each hero may start with only 1 TG.
3. Only one of ech specific TG may be used per player or team.
4. TGs drafted are not transferrable during a game, and are lost if their heroes are defeated.
5. Heroes with a maximum of 100 points may draft TGs at their normal cost. Heroes with more points must pay double to draft them.
6. In scenarios where new TGs are available for pick up during the game, these may be transferred according to normal rules.
7. In games which are part of a series, all TGs may be transferred from one hero to another between battles/rooms.

Permanent Treasure Glyph Costs

1. Heroic Rune 30
2. Talisman of Defense 30
3. Holy Symbol of Pelor 40
4. Brooch of Shielding 50
5. Giant Hunting Stone 40
6. Oceanstride Amulet 50

Temporary Treasure Glyph Costs

1. Potion of Healing 20
2. Elixer of Speed 20
3. Ring of Protection 20
4. Whetstone of Venom 30
5. Bracers of Teleportation 20
6. Belt of Giant Strength 20
7. Cloak of Invisibility 20
8. Bolt of Witherwood 40
9. Revenant's Tome 50
10. Scarab of Invulnerability 30

* Note: These are draft rules yet to be playtested.*

[Strack9]

Updated the first post for the D3 Glyphs

Originally Posted by chas

Permanent Treasure Glyph Costs

1. Heroic Rune 30
2. Talisman of Defense 30
3. Holy Symbol of Pelor 40
4. Brooch of Shielding 50
5. Giant Hunting Stone 40
6. Oceanstride Amulet 50

Temporary Treasure Glyph Costs

1. Potion of Healing 20
2. Elixer of Speed 20
3. Ring of Protection 20
4. Whetstone of Venom 30
5. Bracers of Teleportation 20
6. Belt of Giant Strength 20
7. Cloak of Invisibility 20
8. Bolt of Witherwood 40
9. Revenant's Tome 50
10. Scarab of Invulnerability 30

I'm curious to your thought processes regarding you pricings. One that immediately stands out to me, is that the Heroic Rune is inherantly more valuable than the Giant Hunting Stone since it grants +1 Att vs. everyone, whereas the GHS needs the target to be large or huge. I'll check out the D3 Glyph discussion thread before commenting more.

Edit: I didn't notice at first that the GHS has a boost to Def also. I suppose there's a lot more room for debate now. Preliminarily I'm putting them at around equal @ +30 pts ea.

[dok]

I really don't like changing the glyph values for different figures. This only makes sense if you disallow dropping and picking up, at which point you're not really playing treasure glyphs any more... you're playing paid-for bonuses that happen to match the text appearing on treasure glyphs.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Heroic Rune: (+1 to normal attacks) Has the most value for multiple attackers. Increases lower attacks by a higher percentage. So . . .Zetacron, Syvaris, Fen Hydra? Zetacron's the biggest jump IMHO.
Zetacron + 40 30 pts.

Looks about right. Skahen is in the discussion as well, as is the Warhulk, as is Cyprien (because extra attack means extra kills, especially against squad figures, which means extra life). I would probably index the glyph cost to the Hydra, just because the Hydra is a lot more dangerous and significant in the metagame than Zetacron. I would gladly pay 30 points to give the Hydra an attack of 5, but I'd be a bit less enthusiastic at 50. 40 feels about right.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Talisman of Defense: (+1 to defence)
according to the survivability tables, you get the most value from beefing up an already beefy unit, but counterstrike and defensive effects are also worth considering. So that makes it wide open . . .Q9, Tor-Kul-Na, Charos, Kaimon Awa, Agent Skahen, Gurei Oni, Sharwin. I'm Gon'na go with Charos for being beefy and having counterstrike.
Charos + 40 30 20 pts.

This is arguably the best treasure glyph out there. It's certainly the most universally useful. I would probably pay 60 to give Q9 another point of defense.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Holy Symbol of Pelor (Attack +2 vs. Undead)
Situational to be sure. In a draft setting it's gon'na favor multiple normal attacks.
Syvaris + 40 30 20 pts.

Why is this one Syvarris when Heroic Rune was Zetacron? Are you just trying to pick a different hero each time? I'd go with the Hydra again. In a blind format, 20 is totally fine, but in a drafting format, it's much better. (In that case, Zetacron might be the best, as Zeta+Pelor is a hard counter to Cyprien).

Originally Posted by Strack9

Brooch of Shielding (adds disengage) Nilfheim hates getting pinned down. The Wyvern and Valgard deserve an honorable mention, but nobody breaks this glyph past 30pts. IMHO.
Nilfheim +20 pts.

I disagree with Nilfheim as the figure who wants disengage the most - yes, he hates being engaged by one squaddie, but he has lots of ways to avoid it between his maneuverability, range, and screening options, and moreover, he has plenty of life with which to risk disengage.

The figures that need disengage the most are high defense, low life, hard hitting melee figures that lack a special attack. The Iron Golem would be an example, but the most obvious one is the Hydra. A disengaging Hydra would be worth around 160 to me, so I'd say 40 is a good price here.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Giant Hunter Stone (+1 vs. Large and Huge)
Inherantly less valuable than the Heroic Rune. Might as well use it with the one that already needs to face a Large or Huge figure to be of any worth
Sir Denerek +20 pts.

It's not inherently less valuable than the HR, because it adds to defense, too. Anyway, the main candidates are Zetacron and the Fen Hydra. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it really is a select set that benefits the most from extra attack. You can make a pretty good argument for either of them, but a cost of 20 or 25 is probably reasonable.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Oceanstride Amulet (Gaines Slither) Pretty situational, but maybe usefull one time for an assassain/berserker type like Isamu or Eltahale.
Eltahale +20 pts.

I agree that this one is situational, and the pricing there is about right. Eltahale's special movement powers mean she's already got ways of dealing with an enemy camped on the far side of the river. So she's probably not the best place for this. I would probably lean towards the Frost Giant of Morh as the single-hexer who is in the position to take the most advantage out of crossing water.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Potion of Healing: (Remove up to 3 wounds on your turn)
Keeps figures around longer. Most reliable, however, with units that don't fear getting knocked out 1 round after taking 3 wounds. If you want to have a flat cost for Permanent and Temporary glyphs, Potion of Healing is definitely an exceptionThe Fen Hydra would definitely be the scariest thing to see jump back to full health, but because it has to be hanging by a thread to get the max benefit . . . what the heck, I'm gon'na use the scariest situation for pricing purposes. Fen Hydra +90 pts?Q9 costs 45 pts per life and seeing him brought back from the brink of death would be disheartening indeed.
Q9 +130 pts.

I think you're slightly overrating its value here; that's probably an accurate reflection of the value against low-attack figures trying to wear Q9 down one hit at a time, but the last time I lost Q9 he went from full health to zero health in one turn. I wouldn't go above 90 for the price here, and I think that's too high (I think I would spend my points elsewhere).

Originally Posted by Strack9

Bolt of Witherwood (AA):(Insta-kill within 5 spaces on a roll of 16+)
This seems better than the average glyph and works with anybody. (it is an ancient Artifact after all) Cyprien can probably deliver it most effectively, plus he gets a life back if it works!
Cyprien +40 pts.

Seems about right - a bit less than a quarter of the cost of Q9/Nilfheim/Zelrig. You could go up to 45, but I wouldn't go higher than that.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Elixir of Speed (Move +4)
Helps Meleers that might get killed before they can do their damage. If Jotun could make it into someones start zone untouched . . . he still might have trouble making back his points. Maybe I'm just jaded by my rotten luck with Jotun, and playtesting with a TG will change my mind, but I'm gon'na submit the Fen Hydra again as the top candidate. +20 pts? If Tor-Kul-Na could get 4 extra move he could (theoreticaly) kill 4 extra figures, and he'd only really need to kill maybe 1 extra to make it worth his while.
Tor-Kul-Na + 30 20 pts.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Ring of Protection (Defense +3)
While it's great that it also works against special attacks, it doesn't mean that it will make your countestrike work against ranged or special attacks. Still useful for a 1-time counterstrike when the stakes are high, but to mix it up some I'll toss Krug in the ring as it would help him finesse his wound markers without going over. Krug +50 pts.??? (To make things somewhat near a flat price for temporary glyphs) +30
Krug +20 pts.

I'd probably lean towards Charos as the nastiest figure to give this to, although Krug is an interesting option. I like 25 or 30.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Whetstone of Venom (+2 wounds when normal attack scores a hit. Declare before attack.)

Spoiler Alert!

It's meant for someone who wants to kill a hero, and best with someone who's reasonably sure of landing at least one wound; an assassin. The problem is that the hit has to be landed by a normal attack.

I love the idea of giving this to Isamu and gambling on a 1 or 2 shot Raelin assassination. Could that bump him up to 40 pts? I don't know, his inherent value skews things. There's got to be a more consistent pairing to get a baseline from. Agent Carr and both Drakes are hero killers with high offence. +30 pts? Does Brandis Skyhunter edge them out? As others have pointed out, the whetstone improves his chance to get his extra turn, and his high mobility gives him a good chance to strike first. Still it's just a 1 time gamble. Personally, I can't see wanting to draft this glyph for over 40 pts for any of these guys so (and sorry for the ramble) . . .

Brandis Skyhunter + 30 20 pts.

I like Cyprien with this one, too. But 20 or 30 points, yeah.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Bracers of Teleportation: (Blink 10 same level spaces instead of moving. Ignore engagement swipes)

Spoiler Alert!

Same function as the move glyph, but this one helps most figures move more and helps a figure escape as well as engage. Tor-Kul-Na's definetly out of this race. Can't think of a standout offhand though.

Jotun? +20 pts.

Jotun can disengage, he has a special attack, and he's not afraid of anybody in a showdown. I would tend towards the Fen Hydra here (getting tired of me saying that? Sorry, extreme powers mean lots of treasure glyph leverage) as it can teleport past any screen and then rip off 4 attack of 4. Seems like that's worth 30 points.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Cloak of Invisibility (No hit zones and ignore passing swipes this round until you attack)

Spoiler Alert!

You can still get hit by melee and increasingly avaliable but not ubiquitous AOE attacks, but MAN! Special ability figures like Kee-Mo-Shi and Braxas are upgraded by more than just +20 pts. I bet Braxas could kill an extra 2 squads of what-have-you in a round. The jury is still out on this one.

Braxas + 120 40?

Yeah, Braxas is a no-brainer here (Grimnak in second, but it's a distant second). 120 is definitely too high (it's just one round) but 50 might be a fair price.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Belt of Giant Strength (+2 dice vs. adjascents this turn)

Spoiler Alert!

the more attacks, the more effective. So, Krug, Fen Hydra. Zetacron could deliver quite the blow if he could get close enough. Master Win-Chiu-Woo could could theoreticaly validate his cost by getting 6 attacks of 6. But in real life, the most probable scenario is . . .

Seige +20 pts.

The new ruling is that this only works for one single solitary attack. So I think the winner is Cyprien. 20 points sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Revnant's Tome (AA): (bring back a destroyed figure for 1 normal attack)

Spoiler Alert!

Anybody can deliver this Ancient Artifact's sorcerous attack but you won't want to give it to someone who's on the front line 'cause you need someone to be dead already to use it. Kaemon Awa's a good cleanup figure . . .

Kaemon Awa +20 pts.

Sure, why not. This one is a good reason to have Jotun in your army.

Originally Posted by Strack9

Scarab of Invulnerability: (15- ignore 1 wound. 16+ ignore all wounds)

Spoiler Alert!

So here again, like the Healing Gliph, one must ask "how much is 1 life point worth?" On Q9 it's worth 35 pts. For figures 100 pts or less the average is probably under 20. Lower life figures benefit the most like Sudema (who is conveniently thematic)

Sudema + 35 pts.

Not a chance. This is far more valuable than you are giving credit for. And the best figures for it are Q9 and the Hydra (yes, those two again). You could make an argument for the Deathwalkers here, too. It's worth a good 60 points, I think.

[1Mmirg]

We haven't done this at a tourney, but back when we first started playing, we played home games where each player could draft a single glyph of choice (as part of the drafting process, so it took up one of your picks).

The glyph was simply placed on a character card at the beginning of the game. (We played both with a "if it dies, the glyph falls to the ground" and "if it dies the glyph just dies with it" approach--they each worked, though I actually liked the idea of the glyph just dying with the character.)

There was no values attached; it was a simple, each player can draft one glyph (or a few times we did 2 glyphs). Pick the one that best helps your army--there were, even back then, plenty of great options and fun combinations. (I remember when the glyph of Thorian came out--it rapidly became a favorite draft!)

Anyhow, nothing as elaborate as what you have here, but simple and workable and lots of fun.

I could imagine doing a tourney where a single T-glyph is allowed in every army. Pick your own glyph carefully and know that you're going up against armies that have a boosted unit as well.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

We haven't done this at a tourney, but back when we first started playing, we played home games where each player could draft a single glyph of choice (as part of the drafting process, so it took up one of your picks).

The glyph was simply placed on a character card at the beginning of the game. (We played both with a "if it dies, the glyph falls to the ground" and "if it dies the glyph just dies with it" approach--they each worked, though I actually liked the idea of the glyph just dying with the character.)

There was no values attached; it was a simple, each player can draft one glyph (or a few times we did 2 glyphs). Pick the one that best helps your army--there were, even back then, plenty of great options and fun combinations. (I remember when the glyph of Thorian came out--it rapidly became a favorite draft!)

Anyhow, nothing as elaborate as what you have here, but simple and workable and lots of fun.

I could imagine doing a tourney where a single T-glyph is allowed in every army. Pick your own glyph carefully and know that you're going up against armies that have a boosted unit as well.

I've been seriously considering something like this as well. I've also been kicking around allowing players to include Treasure Glyphs in their draft pools for draft tournaments, which means they could be drafted by you or your opponent. Are you going to draft Cyprien when there's a Holy Symbol of Pelor in the pool?

[lefton4ya]

I could see a pooled draft tourney where each person brings a 1 permanent and 1 temporary glyph and that combined with an opponent is the pool. From here you could go one of two ways:
1. Have the glyphs be draftable at the points above and take up a draft turn or drafted last after a player drafts his/her last character, which is incentive to finish draft first. Probably a good idea to limit the glyph draft to one per player
2. Have the glyphs be free where each player can pick 1 glyph. This can either be drafted in place of character draft turn or you could make them be drafted first or drafted last after all players draft full points.

[Strack9]

Originally Posted by dok

This is arguably the best treasure glyph out there. It's certainly the most universally useful. I would probably pay 60 to give Q9 another point of defense.

I've gone back and forth on this one in my mind because of other's comments but also because 1 pt of defense seems less valuable than 1 pt of offense in this game. 60 pts seems too expensive for me still, but I'll bunp it back to 40 pts at least.

Originally Posted by dok

Why is this one Syvarris when Heroic Rune was Zetacron? Are you just trying to pick a different hero each time? I'd go with the Hydra again. In a blind format, 20 is totally fine, but in a drafting format, it's much better. (In that case, Zetacron might be the best, as Zeta+Pelor is a hard counter to Cyprien).

To be honest I did try to spread the love whenever there were multiple candidates and none seemed clearly the best to me. I was considering a blind format when I made my original comments. I think you make a good point that in a drafting situation the value of the glyphs would change. Particularily for this Glyph.

Originally Posted by dok

I disagree with Nilfheim as the figure who wants disengage the most - yes, he hates being engaged by one squaddie, but he has lots of ways to avoid it between his maneuverability, range, and screening options, and moreover, he has plenty of life with which to risk disengage.

The figures that need disengage the most are high defense, low life, hard hitting melee figures that lack a special attack. The Iron Golem would be an example, but the most obvious one is the Hydra. A disengaging Hydra would be worth around 160 to me, so I'd say 40 is a good price here.

You make some good points. I'll be updating the OP.

Originally Posted by dok

It's not inherently less valuable than the HR, because it adds to defense, too. Anyway, the main candidates are Zetacron and the Fen Hydra. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it really is a select set that benefits the most from extra attack. You can make a pretty good argument for either of them, but a cost of 20 or 25 is probably reasonable.

Already fixed. I misread that Glyph when I added it.

Originally Posted by dok

I agree that this one is situational, and the pricing there is about right. Eltahale's special movement powers mean she's already got ways of dealing with an enemy camped on the far side of the river. So she's probably not the best place for this. I would probably lean towards the Frost Giant of Morh as the single-hexer who is in the position to take the most advantage out of crossing water.

I'll switch him in.

Originally Posted by dok

I think you're slightly overrating its value here; that's probably an accurate reflection of the value against low-attack figures trying to wear Q9 down one hit at a time, but the last time I lost Q9 he went from full health to zero health in one turn. I wouldn't go above 90 for the price here, and I think that's too high (I think I would spend my points elsewhere).

I'll switch this to +80 pts.

Originally Posted by dok

I'd probably lean towards Charos as the nastiest figure to give this to, although Krug is an interesting option. I like 25 or 30.

I slashed the price on this one back when it looked like I could get away with pricing all the TG's @ 20 pts, but now that I have a second opinion I'm goin' back to 30 pts.

Originally Posted by dok

Jotun can disengage, he has a special attack, and he's not afraid of anybody in a showdown. I would tend towards the Fen Hydra here (getting tired of me saying that? Sorry, extreme powers mean lots of treasure glyph leverage) as it can teleport past any screen and then rip off 4 attack of 4. Seems like that's worth 30 points.

Fen Hydra > Jotun.

Ya know, I'm glad I didn't put the Hydra down for all of these if only because It's incited some good discussion.

Originally Posted by dok

The new ruling is that this only works for one single solitary attack. So I think the winner is Cyprien. 20 points sounds reasonable.

Good to know.

Originally Posted by dok

Not a chance. This is far more valuable than you are giving credit for. And the best figures for it are Q9 and the Hydra (yes, those two again). You could make an argument for the Deathwalkers here, too. It's worth a good 60 points, I think.

I was just in the middle of changing the OP while you posted this . Yeah. 35 pts is too low. Anyway it's been updated.

[chas]

Strack9: Part of it is impressionistic, but I started with your note on page 1: 20 points for a Temp and 30 for a Perm. Then I basically added 10 points for each additional +1 (after the first) to a die roll. Additional cost for a really good power, but a maximum of 50 per glyph.

Thanks for letting me piggy back on your idea!