Drafting Treasure Glyphs

[Strack9]

[Summary options for premade armies]

1. Any 100 pt or less figure can start the game with a Glyph for 20 pts extra.
2. Bring a Glyph with your premade army @ 30 pts/Permanent, 20 pts/Temporary, excluding the Healing Glyph.

[Summaries for Drafting]

Chas's Rules for Drafting Glyphs

[Optional rules for both premade-army and drafted-army games]

1. Only 1 glyph per army
2. Only 1 glyph per hero
3. Whenever a glyph would be dropped, it is instead destroyed

[/summaries]


I was thinking of different Hero/TreasureGlyph synergies, which lead me to think, "what if you could draft treasures as part of your army" and I tried to think of all the treasure glyphs and how one would go about costing them. I did a search and found this topic has come up briefly several times for regular glyphs but decided to start a separate one that concentrates just on the Treasure Glyphs. I think the TG will lend themselves more easily to drafting since they are more limited in scope (affecting only one figure at a time) than the regular glyphs.

Here's my thought process. The value for a TG will vary in relation to who they're paired with, so I've tried to figure out the most powerful combos and estimate how many points the affected figure improves by. I'm really looking forward to what the community may come up with; possibly some sleeper pairings. Here's the TG's for convenience and my best guesses at the strongest pairings.

Permanent Treasure Glyphs:

Heroic Rune: (+1 to normal attacks)

Spoiler Alert!

Has the most value for multiple attackers. Increases lower attacks by a higher percentage. So . . .Zetacron, Syvaris, Fen Hydra, Agent Skahen, Ogre Warhulk, Siege? Zetacron's the biggest jump IMHO.

Zetacron + 40 30 40 pts.


Talisman of Defense: (+1 to defence)

Spoiler Alert!

according to the survivability tables, you get the most value from beefing up an already beefy unit, but counterstrike and defensive effects are also worth considering. So that makes it wide open . . .Q9, Tor-Kul-Na, Charos, Kaimon Awa, Agent Skahen, Gurei Oni, Sharwin. I'm Gon'na go with Charos for being beefy and having counterstrike.

Charos + 40 30 20 40 pts.


Holy Symbol of Pelor (Attack +2 vs. Undead)

Spoiler Alert!

Situational to be sure. In a draft setting it's gon'na favor multiple normal attacks.

Syvaris + 40 30 20 pts.


Brooch of Shielding (adds disengage)

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by dok

The figures that need disengage the most are high defense, low life, hard hitting melee figures that lack a special attack. The Iron Golem would be an example, but the most obvious one is the Hydra. A disengaging Hydra would be worth around 160 to me, so I'd say 40 is a good price here.

Fen Hydra +20 pts 40 pts.


Giant Hunter Stone (+1 Att & Def vs. Large and Huge)

Spoiler Alert!

I'm deleting my original assessment since I misread the glyph and I'm going with Dok here, but sticking to +30 pts

Originally Posted by dok

the main candidates are Zetacron and the Fen Hydra . . . but it really is a select set that benefits the most from extra attack.

Sir Denerek Fen Hydra +20 30 pts.


Oceanstride Amulet (Gaines Slither)

Spoiler Alert!

Pretty situational, but maybe usefull one time for an assassain/berserker type like Isamu or Eltahale.

Frost Giant of Mohr +20 pts.


Temporary Treasure Glyphs: (1 time use)

Potion of Healing: (Remove up to 3 wounds on your turn)

Spoiler Alert!

Keeps figures around longer. Most reliable, however, with units that don't fear getting knocked out 1 round after taking 3 wounds. If you want to have a flat cost for Permanent and Temporary glyphs, Potion of Healing is definitely an exceptionThe Fen Hydra would definitely be the scariest thing to see jump back to full health, but because it has to be hanging by a thread to get the max benefit . . . what the heck, I'm gon'na use the scariest situation for pricing purposes. Fen Hydra +90 pts?Q9 costs 45 pts per life and seeing him brought back from the brink of death would be disheartening indeed.

Q9 + 130 80? pts.


Bolt of Witherwood (AA):(Insta-kill within 5 spaces on a roll of 16+)

Spoiler Alert!

This seems better than the average glyph and works with anybody. (it is an ancient Artifact after all) Cyprien can probably deliver it most effectively, plus he gets a life back if it works!

Cyprien +40 pts.


Elixir of Speed (Move +4)

Spoiler Alert!

Helps Meleers that might get killed before they can do their damage. If Jotun could make it into someones start zone untouched . . . he still might have trouble making back his points. Maybe I'm just jaded by my rotten luck with Jotun, and playtesting with a TG will change my mind, but I'm gon'na submit the Fen Hydra again as the top candidate. +20 pts? If Tor-Kul-Na could get 4 extra move he could (theoreticaly) kill 4 extra figures, and he'd only really need to kill maybe 1 extra to make it worth his while.

Tor-Kul-Na + 30 20 pts.


Ring of Protection (Defense +3)

Spoiler Alert!

While it's great that it also works against special attacks, it doesn't mean that it will make your countestrike work against ranged or special attacks. Still useful for a 1-time counterstrike when the stakes are high, but to mix it up some I'll toss Krug in the ring as it would help him finesse his wound markers without going over. Krug +50 pts.??? (To make things somewhat near a flat price for temporary glyphs) +30

Krug +20 30 pts.


Whetstone of Venom (+2 wounds when normal attack scores a hit. Declare before attack.)

Spoiler Alert!

It's meant for someone who wants to kill a hero, and best with someone who's reasonably sure of landing at least one wound; an assassin. The problem is that the hit has to be landed by a normal attack.

I love the idea of giving this to Isamu and gambling on a 1 or 2 shot Raelin assassination. Could that bump him up to 40 pts? I don't know, his inherent value skews things. There's got to be a more consistent pairing to get a baseline from. Agent Carr and both Drakes are hero killers with high offence. +30 pts? Does Brandis Skyhunter edge them out? As others have pointed out, the whetstone improves his chance to get his extra turn, and his high mobility gives him a good chance to strike first. Still it's just a 1 time gamble. Personally, I can't see wanting to draft this glyph for over 40 pts for any of these guys so (and sorry for the ramble) . . .

Brandis Skyhunter + 30 20 pts.


Bracers of Teleportation: (Blink 10 same level spaces instead of moving. Ignore engagement swipes)

Spoiler Alert!

Same function as the move glyph, but this one helps most figures move more and helps a figure escape as well as engage. Tor-Kul-Na's definetly out of this race. Can't think of a standout offhand though.

Fen Hydra +20 30 pts.


Cloak of Invisibility (No hit zones and ignore passing swipes this round until you attack)

Spoiler Alert!

You can still get hit by melee and increasingly avaliable but not ubiquitous AOE attacks, but MAN! Special ability figures like Kee-Mo-Shi and Braxas are upgraded by more than just +20 pts. I bet Braxas could kill an extra 2 squads of what-have-you in a round. The jury is still out on this one.

Braxas + 120 40? 50? pts.


Belt of Giant Strength (+2 dice vs. adjascents this turn)

Spoiler Alert!

the more attacks, the more effective. So, Krug, Fen Hydra. Zetacron could deliver quite the blow if he could get close enough. Master Win-Chiu-Woo could could theoreticaly validate his cost by getting 6 attacks of 6. But in real life, the most probable scenario is . . .

Originally Posted by dok

The new ruling is that this only works for one single solitary attack. So I think the winner is Cyprien.

Cyprien +20 pts.


Revnant's Tome (AA): (bring back a destroyed figure for 1 normal attack)

Spoiler Alert!

Anybody can deliver this Ancient Artifact's sorcerous attack but you won't want to give it to someone who's on the front line 'cause you need someone to be dead already to use it. Kaimon Awa's a good cleanup figure . . .

Kaimon Awa +20 pts.


Scarab of Invulnerability: (15- ignore 1 wound. 16+ ignore all wounds)

Spoiler Alert!

So here again, like the Healing Glyph, one must ask "how much is 1 life point worth?" On Q9 it's worth 35 pts. For figures 100 pts or less the average is probably under 20. Lower life figures benefit the most like Sudema (who is conveniently thematic). It's been pointed out that The Deathwalkers theoreticaly benefit 100 - 140 pts. depending which one has the glyph (although, they're all pretty high priced to begin with). It's also been pointed out that The Fen Hydra benefits in ways not quantified by hitpoints alone.

Deathwalker 9000 +50? pts.


Some prices I started arbitrarily based on feel, and others I reasoned out a price in my head. For example if the Potion of Healing can heal 3 lives and the Fen Hydra Q9 costs 180 and has 4 lives, then arguably the Potion of Healing aught to cost ~ 135 pts; 3/4 of 180. Since then the community has made/still makes good cases for higher or lower shifts which I try to update as people argue their point of view.

I'd LOVE to see a tourney where glyphs could be brought. Even if it was a "bring a free treasure glyph" rule. Almost everyone would bring a hero, and figuring out what to prepare for would be very fun and challenging.

Edit: For the TG costs above, I've assumed a blind draft and 400-600 pt games
Edit: Limiting to 1 glyph per army or figure seems like a good idea too.
Edit: It was suggested that (generally) +30 for Permanents and +20 for Temporaries is more reasonable, and I've been convinced and then unconvinced since.
Edit: In fact even +20 is reasonable for most Permanents in most cases. Two tourney variations that seem promising are:

1. Any 100 pt or less figure can start the game with a Glyph for 20 pts extra.
2. Bring a Glyph with your premade army for 20 pts, excluding the Healing Glyph.

[lxnrhinners]

You've got some VERY nice stuff here. I think that what you've brought here is more likely to be utilized in actual gameplay (as opposed to drafting field glyphs) because, like you said, each Treasure Glyph only affects one character (similar to drafting an EXTREMELY weak hero)--whereas field glyphs like Gerda affect the entire army (similar more to the effects of Kato Katsuro). The points you have here seem pretty balanced, too.

One question, though--
with each deduction of point values for each of the TGs, you say (Hero's name) +### pts. Does this mean you have to draft a glyph with another character, or would you draft the glyph on your drafting turn *instead* of a figure, and then get to add it to any Hero when you place figures on the starting zones?

+rep

[wriggz]

Tor-Kul-Na with the move glyph would be far more fearsome. He could sqash your whole army on one turn.

[Strack9]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Tor-Kul-Na with the move glyph would be far more fearsome. He could sqash your whole army on one turn.

Nice one. I'll change that. (of course if you fail any of the stomps in your first 6 move, the move glyph would be totaly wasted since you have to declare before moving) . . . what are the odds of rolling 8-20 ten times?

Originally Posted by lxnrhinners

One question, though--
with each deduction of point values for each of the TGs, you say (Hero's name) +### pts. Does this mean you have to draft a glyph with another character, or would you draft the glyph on your drafting turn *instead* of a figure, and then get to add it to any Hero when you place figures on the starting zones?

The intent is that you would be able to draft the glyph instead of an army card and then use it for whomever you choose. The reason I put (Hero's name) +## pts. is because I think the price of the glyps should be based on the best "combo" so to speak. The units listed in my first post represent my guess at the best "combo" and consequently the price I think the glyph should be drafted at.

[Yodaking]

I think you are over pricing them. The permenent ones can be lost once the figure carrying it dies, becoming a boost for your opponent and a negative for you. The temp ones only have a one time use, and you are not even gaurenteed a chance to use it. For example, it is quite possible to die before you can use the healing potion, then your opponent might pick it up and use it instead. There is no way I would ever spend 90 points on a healing potion, when I can just draft another figure with more then 3 life.

I do like the idea of being able to draft a TG as part of your army though. I would suggest just having a flat price for all permanent TGs (30 pts?) and then a lower flat rate for all temp TGs (20 pts?), regaurdless of type. Restrict it to only 1 glyph per army to keep it from being abused.

[Strack9]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I think you are over pricing them. The permenent ones can be lost once the figure carrying it dies, becoming a boost for your opponent and a negative for you. The temp ones only have a one time use, and you are not even gaurenteed a chance to use it. For example, it is quite possible to die before you can use the healing potion, then your opponent might pick it up and use it instead.

I see what you're saying. As a counterpoint I'd say that since you start with them you would be the more likely of the 2 players to get to use the glyph, and even if you lost the glyph (barring an opposing figure with post attack movement) you would still have the first opportunity to recover the glyph. That being said, I'm rather swayed by your point and conceed the probability that 30/20 pts per permanent/temporary glyph is nearer the mark. . . . with one exception . . .

Originally Posted by Yodaking

There is no way I would ever spend 90 points on a healing potion, when I can just draft another figure with more then 3 life.

I'll conceed this point also . . . in the case of the Fen Hydra. But what about, say, Q9? You only get to draft one of him, and he has the potential to heal 135 points worth of life. Even if he heals after the first or second wound received he gains 45 or 70 pts worth of life. I would definitely pay 70 or 80 pts for the heal glyph in that situation, and 30 pts. would be highway robbery.

In this case it seems a shame to price the heal glyph against it's best "combo" because Q9 is definitely at the extreme end of the price/life spectrum. I do, however, think the value of the heal glyph will end up higher than the other temporary glyphs since there are many figures with a price/life ratio of higher than 30 pts.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I do like the idea of being able to draft a TG as part of your army though. I would suggest just having a flat price for all permanent TGs (30 pts?) and then a lower flat rate for all temp TGs (20 pts?), regardless of type. Restrict it to only 1 glyph per army to keep it from being abused.

I'm definitely going to do this for all home games in the intermediate future, and will try to post any issues that come up (although the number of home games have been few recently). I don't forsee any except for an undercosted heal glyph. I'm gon'na start that one off at 50 pts.

[Yodaking]

Yeah, I guess I can see how the healing one can be pretty significant on a high defense/ high life hero. Maybe just leave that unavilable for drafting.

It would be really cool if they came out with a cheap thief D&D figure that could 'pick pocket' and adjecent hero and take any treasure glyphs they have on their card away from them on a D20 roll. Then the healing potion would suddenly not be so scary since you could take it away from Q9 before he had a chance to use it.

[Lord Zaibatsu]

This is a cool Idea but it really only seems useful for dungeon campaigns for a boost to your party of heroes. In a normal game it seems like things could be to easily broken Who wants to fight Q9 with a health potion, talisman of defense, ring of protection, and an elixer of speed tacked onto him.

[Strack9]

One way to fight that would be to limit it to one glyph per person, but as long as the glyphs are priced right it shouldn't make a difference. I mean if you price the heal glyph at 130 (for the worst case; Q9 scenario) that's practicaly the same as banning it, but it puts the choice back in the player's hands.

Another (unappealing) idea: Make it so the Potion of Healing is only draftable at the end at 3x(points/life) of the highest ratioed figure already drafted by the chooser. Way too much math for a friendly game IMO.

BTW, after Q9, which figure has the next highest points/life ratio? My first thought is the Fen Hydra at 30pts/life.

[Anitar]

Originally Posted by Strack9

One way to fight that would be to limit it to one glyph per person, but as long as the glyphs are priced right it shouldn't make a difference. I mean if you price the heal glyph at 130 (for the worst case; Q9 scenario) that's practicaly the same as banning it, but it puts the choice back in the player's hands.

Another (unappealing) idea: Make it so the Potion of Healing is only draftable at the end at 3x(points/life) of the highest ratioed figure already drafted by the chooser. Way too much math for a friendly game IMO.

BTW, after Q9, which figure has the next highest points/life ratio? My first thought is the Fen Hydra at 30pts/life.

Doctor Doom...

[Tai-Pan]

We've been playing recently that every player draws one random equipment glyph from a pool. It kind of mixes things up but rarely breaks the game. I still haven't figured out what to do with the Holy Symbol though, since if the other players don't have undead it's worthless.

[TurtleKing99]

For 490, I would take a 15 defense Q9. I think the number of treasure glyphs you can draft should be limited to 1 or 2, maybe 1 per hero.