[Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - AotV Testing

[NecroBlade]

Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.

I disagree that they're ready for a vote at this point after having reviewed the games again. I think that they're close, but we should do our due diligence in making sure that the drop to 90 was fine first. It's only 10 points, but that can make or break a lot of builds. I'm frankly concerned at the builds that we've been running Velnesh in; for context, here's a quick stats breakdown:

1: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
2: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
*3: Velnesh + Unique Hodgepodge vs. Wolves of Badru:
4: Velnesh + Varkaanans vs. Mariedians
*5: Velnesh Hodgepodge vs. Stingers + Ozuul Hodgepodge (game not completed, speculated that they would've killed over their points if so)
*6: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Zombies
*7: Velnesh + 12th Caucasus vs. Hodgepodge
*8: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (Including 4 AotV units)
*9: Velnesh + Greenscales vs. Yokai
10: Velnesh + Gorillinators vs. Romans
11: Hodgepodge vs. Grok Riders (killed "over" their points by technicality because they killed 3 Groks)
*12: Ozuul Hodgepodge vs. Monks
13: TSA vs. Stingers/Q10 (technically this one included Masha, an unfinalized unit, too, but that held them back more than anything else and I've played ~30 tests with him alone)
*14: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units)
*15: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units; never needed to use the Velnesh)
*16: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)
*17: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)

Key to the above:
* = Contained 2+ Units in a Volatile Playtesting State. Some contained as many as 5 unfinalized units, which I don't think is a good enough baseline.
RED = Played against a younger player or the game did not progress far enough to where the Velnesh were really used, sometimes because their army won without needing to use them (so them "not filling their points" is highly misleading in some of these cases).
BOLD = They filled over their points (sometimes close to 200).

Of these tests, only six do not include multiple conflicting playtesting units (not counting Masha to be generous). Of those, the Velnesh filled over their points in four games. Overall, eleven of these seventeen tests have been featuring various hodgepodge armies; that's typically the sort of thing that I'd expect to see from the next stage (Compatibility Testing), once we're comfortable with these guys in a more "traditional" setting. A few are fine, but considering how many of these are already AotV hodgepodges, I'm not comfortable with moving them on yet.

I highly recommend reading back through the playtest reports when you have a chance. They're very informative, but I do not think we are ready to "finalize" the unit yet, especially since they only recently dropped to 90 points. I think that they are very close, but I want to run a few more games with no other playtesting units in situations that they'll excel in. Please humor me and wait for trying to start a vote until I or someone else has a chance to put them through their paces just a little bit more. I get that it sucks to wait for longer and that nothing might change, but I want to ensure that everything is at the highest level of quality that it can possibly be.

[NecroBlade]

You're right that the playtesting so far hasn't been all the latest version. So yes, more tests are great. I do think they haven't changed so much that any tests aren't valid, though. I also don't think it's necessary to play every test against competitive armies. Some, yes, obviously we're not trying to establish a new meta. But ultimately the majority of Heroscape isn't played 500 point blind build. We could maybe stand to sprinkle in fewer "compatibility" tests at this stage, sure.

[flameslayer93]

I'd think a couple more tests should be suffiecient (provided they don't use playtesting units @ astro's request). Each time I've played them, the velnesh have felt more and more "at home" in Valhalla.


Note: I also played them in an all AotV game here last year, but it should be noted that this game was intended to help get the AotV project exposure than anything else.

[flameslayer93]

Just got done playing a game vs Capt Stupendous on Marshall Law.


I played


Velnesh
Minions x3
Heirloom


Capt played


Einar Imperium x2
10th Reg x2
Guilty
Frasier


For the most part, the the Minions did the heavy lifting, but I did use the Velnesh to grab the high point of the map (the sand 4 tile) to prevent him from grabbing it with his gunner figures. That bought my Minions enough time to slowly fly up and claim it, giving them a nigh imprenetrable 7 defense. Although 3 minions died holding it, one did manage to waste an entire round of Capt's 10th Reg attacks, helping to give my deadly axes time to clear away Imperium and 10th figures who were making my Velnesh and Heirloom's life hell.


A Velnesh was used to eat a Wannok wound (so that i didn't completely mill Heirloom), and another was used (with road bonus) to engage the 10th in his SZ with the goal being to prevent them from shooting at a minion holding the mill wound glyph.


Overall, these guys are very useful. Unlike the Ninjas of North Wind they give you the ability to pass on moving when attacked, letting them actually hold ground, hopefully eating a few attacks for your more valuable figures. They definately feel like they are a distinct unit!


(2 OMs used on them, Shift and Blink not used super much since I played them as blockers)


GG Captain!

[destroyer]

I ask too many qustions, when using shift, the Velnesh can Shift to "any" space that is 2 spaces away ignoring height and line of sight?

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by destroyer

I ask too many qustions, when using shift, the Velnesh can Shift to "any" space that is 2 spaces away ignoring height and line of sight?

Yes, that's the intention.

They're spooky Stranger-things-esque aliens that don't care about los when teleporting/phasing.

[NecroBlade]

Yep, they're briefly passing through another dimension, in which the same rules of physics and logic as ours may or may not apply.

[Astroking112]

I finally got another map set up this week and will hopefully be able to play some more testing games for AotV again. Unfortunately, this first one was cut short since it was already running late and the Velnesh died off quickly. There was one Velnesh left alive, but other than absorbing two attacks and an early OM, they had little impact on the game other than serving as targets for MBS to track down and eliminate.

SWAMP THING by Browncoat
400 Points
Glyph of Dagmar

Astro: Roman Legionnaires x3, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Me-Burq-Sa, Sentinels of Grax
Dawn: Arrow Gruts x4, Krug, Velnesh Alphas, Swog Rider

GAME SUMMARY:
We centralized around the eastern hill as Dawn began developing Orcs and I tried to mobilize the Romans up the road to avoid losing height. Krug moved in as well to serve as a roadblock for my Romans, while Me-Burq-Sa moved around and pinged at some of the archers. At the end of Round 1, Dawn moved in with the Velnesh, but my Romans weren't within striking distance yet.

The next round, I used MBS and failed the paralyze roll but killed a Velnesh from height anyway. I then got lucky and killed another one with a Roman from a height disadvantage after the Velnesh whiffed a 5-dice defense roll. We continued fighting over the hill, but I took one more potshot at a Velnesh's extended arm that left it exposed from behind the ruin. It blocked the attack and teleported further behind cover so that MBS couldn't see it anymore. Dawn never thought that it was worthwhile to put an OM on the Velnesh again, and we called the game at the end of the round.

POWER USAGE:
They were able to Shift effectively onto height, but some poor luck and the addition of MBS meant that they lost two figures rapidly. Blink only triggered once, on the third attack they received and the first that they had blocked.

THOUGHTS:
Blink was able to basically protect the last Velnesh for the rest of the game, but it's uncertain if that one would've been able to have a decent swing like in the game where the last Velnesh killed Q10.

I kind of screwed up my army here; the Velnesh are pretty weak to range as a Unique Squad with only 3 figures, so MBS was the perfect counter to them, especially if Paralyzing Stare had ever triggered. The lucky Roman attack certainly didn't help, either.

[Astroking112]

I played another game with these guys in the hands of a new player. There were a couple of tactical errors and swings in luck, but he still enjoyed them quite a bit.

SWAMP THING by Browncoat
390 Points
Glyph of Dagmar

Player 1: Velnesh Alphas, Raelin (SotM), Ashigaru Harquebus x3
Astro: Zombies of Morindan x5, Sir Hawthorne

SURVIVING UNITS:
10x Zombies (16 revivals)
~200 Points

GAME SUMMARY:
Player 1 led with the Velnesh Alphas, quickly claiming Dagmar as I led Sir Hawthorne a bit into danger. A Velnesh shifted behind a tree on height to lie in wait, while the last took the eastern hill.

Zombies and Raelin began developing. The Velnesh on the western side whiffed its defense roll, bringing down their numbers almost immediately. Another one jumped down and managed to kill a zombie, but failed to roll the 2 shields it needed to survive the retaliation despite being in Raelin's aura. The last one sat on the glyph for the rest of the game; it served as a slowdown, since I neither wanted to attack it over other targets nor did Player 1 want to risk another turn with it.

Sir Hawthorne then betrayed me, leaving him blocking the western hill flank and forcing my Zombies to take the long way around. The Harquebus began surrounding Raelin, firing down on the Zombies but failing to completely slow their tide.

The Zombies managed to finally reach the Ashigaru on the eastern hill, and they quickly began converting their numbers. It swang a bit back and forth as the Ashigaru almost reclaimed their hill and banished the Zombies, but a sudden string of successful attacks wiped the Ashigaru off of the hill and left a few stragglers in the central swamp and 6 Ashigaru in the starting zone. The Zombies abandoned Raelin for the starting zone, losing some figures but managing to persist until it had been converted.

Then they began Onslaughting Raelin with their superior numbers. A few fell, but at the end, there were 13 surviving zombies against the Velnesh on Dagmar and a full-life Sir Hawthorne. The Velnesh died to an Onslaught and Sir Hawthorne then proceeded to take down three zombies before he also succumbed to the horde.

POWER USAGE:
Shift was used liberally on this map to quickly climb each hill.
Blink triggered twice, first on a successful block on the western hill and then once on the glyph holder (who stayed put).
The Velnesh never rolled defense dice outside of Raelin's aura. It didn't significantly help them in this game.
Overall, they killed one zombie and absorbed about five attacks.

THOUGHTS:
Player 1 should've led with the Ashigaru here to get the hill sooner and reinforce before the zombies had a chance to catch-up. I tried leading a bit with Sir Hawthorne to offset the initial OMs on the Velnesh, who despite their speed, serve as poor overall defenders, but the early betrayal kind of killed that plan. Generally, this just reinforces that leading with the Velnesh is typically a bad idea--I think that they are best as endgame units or saved for when they can get the first strike with their high attack. They definitely have a high potential, but placing them in unnecessary risks typically neuters that very well.

[lefton4ya]

Thanks for testing @Astroking112 . However I think the Ashigaru is the best opponent possible for Zombies with only 1 defense they are easy replacement Zombies - even better matchup than Vipers or Cutters because at least with them you get first attack, so that game was over before it began. I would like to see Velnesh Alphas paired with either a ranged squad / multi attack hero like 10th/Stingers/Q9/Microcorp/M-43 Resistance/etc or another fast moving squad like Phantom Knights/Spiders/Greenscales/Wolves. You tested with Arrow Grits which are fast moving, but you also want to clump them together, would like to see how Velnesh Alphas does as upport spread about.

[Astroking112]

Swamp Thing is a very mountainous map (it gets up to level 7), so it's tough to completely balance ranged and melee forces there. The zombies actually almost perished before they could get on even ground with the Ashigaru and Raelin, and it wasn't until they crossed to the starting zone that the game was pretty much decided. The 10th or 4th, or not spending so much early development time on the Velnesh to more fully claim one of the hills, probably would've flipped the match-up completely.

The Arrow Gruts were actually played very spread out, too, given that their player only took one Swog Rider and never really used it too much. I felt like the Velnesh were played somewhat similarly in that game, being led with a bit too early and taking some small risks that didn't pay off. In that case, they were a better offensive option for their three attacks of 4, though.

I intend to get off at least one more game with the Velnesh on this map before changing it out for another. I don't really want to pair them with A-tier ranged units because some of my previous experience with them has been that as a 90-point squad, they occupy a midpoint wherein they are often less tempting than your other offensive options and quickly die to fire, making early investments a decent risk.