The Tournament-Worthy Asymmetric Map Workshop

[dok]

Originally Posted by nyys

Hmmm... Like you said this may be an entirely different concept for a map. I see where your coming from, but it also would completely change the theme of the map.

Yeah, I agree. I think I sort of argued myself into a corner there. It would be a completely different map - worth considering, but completely different.

Originally Posted by nyys

In reality (not that this game is about that) there would be places you couldn't reach and would have to find another way to defeat the enemy perched on top.

True. But I have doubts that any map that's not at least theoretically fully accessible for melee/double-spaced figures will be accepted to the BoV. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Moreover, there's plenty of value in working towards a balanced castle map -- even if it's not universally balanced enough to meet BoV approval, such a map has plenty of value to players who want to play informal games using FotA.

Originally Posted by nyys

I think this is where the use of the glyphs is going to be paramount.

Maybe in a scenario like this the Range +4 glyph isn't so broken (though it's not included in the build as is). It may allow for the attackers to shoot in, but the defenders can't reach out (forcing them out of the safety of the walls).

Agreed. I really like the idea of putting the glyph 6 hexes out from the castle wall. So ranged defenders in the castle will always have at least one target - the figure on the glyph - but it gives the attacker the ability to protect their ranged figures.

Originally Posted by nyys

Another thing to keep in mind is the amount of hexes that can be used. As is I've used every hex that the RotV and FotA sets provide, and since TJ is also part of the build there's already several sets included. You could still use a RttFF, VW, or TT and still stay within the BoV restrictions, but it is starting to push the limits.

True, but if I read the BoV rules right, then you could build a map with RotV, FoTA, TJ, and Marvel, right? I was considering adding Marvel, and using concrete for the area inside the castle, including the "stairstep". You could mark out the startzones for the attacker with asphalt, too, much like the way Rÿchean lays out the start zones in Moss Creek Road. It makes the map very easy to understand for a player new to it - "I've got the white hexes, you've got the black hexes".

As I said, I'm really terrible at map construction, but I will give this a try this weekend.

Originally Posted by nyys

Still, I would be interested in seeing an alternate build. I've yet to set it up myself (Fort Lannister) but I have a feeling I'm going to have to rework the castle anyway to make room for the hive and more room in general so it's not one big bottleneck if/when the attacker reaches the walls.

Yeah, a slightly exanded interior sounds good. You could also add a RttFF set, and put in a bridge between sections of the walls, so that an attacker that scales one section of the walls can move all the way around the top and attack troops on all the other sections of walls without going back down.

But I agree with you that my stairstep idea is really a completely different scenario, not a modification of your map.

[ollie]

Yes, Dok, I guess those two maps are pseudo-symmetric, especially Ayrwode's Bluff (which I notice was reviewed but not accepted by the BoV judges). Where The Road Ends mixes it up a little more with road and cover playing off against each other.

Originally Posted by dok

Having not tested it, here are two ideas for that map. The way I get to these suggestions is by thinking through range vs. range, melee vs. melee, range vs. melee, and melee vs. range scenarios in my mind.

1. Rather than placing the ruins towards the bottom of the map, we could place them (almost) side-by-side nearer to the top of the map, centered on the map. This would allow a melee-based army starting on the top to use the ruins as cover to gather behind before they mount their charge. Conversely, it would slow the assault from height for a ranged force, and give the lower army a chance to collect itself.
2. If we swap out Ticala Jungle for RttFF on that map, we could scatter jungle terrain through the bottom levels, which would give more parity to a range vs. range fight without really mucking up range vs. melee or melee vs. melee fights.

I have two reasons for RttFF over TJ; one of them is reasonable! The road tiles are all used to increase the height of the high end of the map; switching to TJ would mean an overall flattening. The unreasonable reason (can a reason be unreasonable?) is that I just don't like TJ as much. I like how they look and the +1 defence rule (on a well designed map) but they make line of sight awkward to check and can be fiddly to play around.

I like the idea of moving the ruins (and trees) around. The glyph locations too for that matter. Anyone that playtests this map is encouraged to tinker.

EDIT.

Originally Posted by dok

As I said, I'm really terrible at map construction, but I will give this a try this weekend.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by dok

True, but if I read the BoV rules right, then you could build a map with RotV, FoTA, TJ, and Marvel, right? I was considering adding Marvel, and using concrete for the area inside the castle, including the "stairstep". You could mark out the startzones for the attacker with asphalt, too, much like the way Rÿchean lays out the start zones in Moss Creek Road. It makes the map very easy to understand for a player new to it - "I've got the white hexes, you've got the black hexes".

I never considered the Marvel Set, that's a great idea! The idea mill is starting to churn... will need to control myself here. Working from home today and I think I just heard the Scape stuff calling to me.

[dok]

Originally Posted by ollie

I have two reasons for RttFF over TJ; one of them is reasonable! The road tiles are all used to increase the height of the high end of the map; switching to TJ would mean an overall flattening.

Yeah, I saw that. I think you can still get basically the same map (maybe lose the elevated triangle at the very top) if you are willing to hollow out some of the support levels a bit more. Looking at a map like Cyprien's Cove shows just how few pieces you need to build high, if you're willing to leave enough gaps.

Originally Posted by ollie

The unreasonable reason (can a reason be unreasonable?) is that I just don't like TJ as much. I like how they look and the +1 defence rule (on a well designed map) but they make line of sight awkward to check and can be fiddly to play around.

I don't have TJ so I can't really comment on its attractiveness vis-a-vis RttFF. But it does sort of annoy me that jungle trees offer a defensive bonus, while pine trees don't. I wish we could use the TJ rules on the RttFF trees.

[gorthan313]

This afternoon, I played a few games on Forgotten Outpost.



Game 1: These were the teams:

Attackers:
Q9
Krav
MBS
MWs
MoU x2

Defenders:
Ulginesh
Chardris
Arkmer
Jorhdawn
KG
Morsbane
Emirroon


This game was a win for the attackers. The Krav sped up the hill early on, and managed to take out Emirroon and Jorhdawn. The first squad of minions followed the Krav, and took out Chardris, Kyntella, and inflicted two wounds on Arkmer. Arkmer's stand against the minion attackers was impressive, as he took out two of them with engagement strike, and the third with his normal attack. the other squad began moving towards Ulginesh, up on the castle wall. Arkmer doubled back, attempting to rescue his leader, but the minions blocked his attacks. Arkmer looked up to see Ulginesh's pegasus topple off of the ramparts. Arkmer then saw the minions descending on Morsbane. Soon, Arkmer was all alone. Arkmer retreated back up the hill, and took out a minion. The other two minions pursued Arkmer, but they were slain by the wizard, now only at one life. Arkmer suddenly heard from behind him, "Target Arkmer is in range."




Game Two:

Attackers:
Q9
MoU x2
MBS
MWs

Defenders:
Ulginesh
Emirroon
Arkmer
Chardris
Jorhdawn
Kyntella


This game was a close win for the defenders. Kyntella claimed the Glyph of Valda, and Emirroon rushed up the ladder to the smaller castle wall, and summoned Jorhdawn and Arkmer. One of the minion claimed the Glyph of Astrid, and two other minions rushed up the hill, as they had done the previous game. Jorhdawn moved along the wall, and took out a minion. Emirroon moved down the wall onto the top of the hill, and summoned Ulginesh, Arkmer, and Chardris. Chardris took out another minion. Three minions rushed the elven lines, and one of them was taken out by Arkmer's Engagement Strike. Emirroon summoned Jorhdawn, but Jorhdawn failed to inflict any damage. Two minions attacked Jorhdawn and killed her. Emirron moved near one of them, failed to summon Kyntella, but took out the minion. Arkmer failed to take out the other, and that minion took out Arkmer. Chardris took out that minion, and Emirroon summoned KG. Q9 moved forward, and wounded Chardris twice! Chardris turns around, and wounds the soulborg twice with his special. Q9 wounds Chardris once. Chardris takes out the minion on the glyph. Q9 wounds Chardris twice. Chardris takes out Q9. MBS advances, and takes out Chardris. Ulginesh wounds MBS once. MBS wounds Emirroon three times because of Paralyzing Gaze. Ulginesh takes out the Warlord. The MWs advance. Emirroon moves forward, and summons Ulginesh and KG. KG grabs the glyph, and takes out a MW. The MW respawn their teammate. Ulginesh fails to do any damage. The MW take out KG. Emirroon grabs the glyph. The MW wound Emirroon once, and Ulginesh once. Ulginesh flies up onto the bridge, and takes out a MW. The MW wound Ulginesh. Ulginesh takes out another MW. The MW fails to do a thing. Ulginesh takes out the third MW. The last MW fails to summone his teammate, and falls to Ulginesh.




What these two games told me:
The defender doesn't have an advantage over the attackers. The Krav Maga work very well in an attacking team. The Elven Wizards work well for defending. Both sides of the map can be used to great effect.

[dok]

I'm not sure that two close games where a "B-" defense force holds its own against an "A" attacking force demonstrates the balance of the map. Particularly given that that particular attacking force (Minions and range) doesn't have any issues climbing the ladders. To me, this suggests that the defense has a significant advantage in that scenario. I'm not sure that's true, mind you, but that's the conclusion I would draw from those tests.

It would be more illustrative if you tried flipping attacker and defender with the armies otherwise unchanged.

[gorthan313]

Originally Posted by dok

I'm not sure that two close games where a "B-" defense force holds its own against an "A" attacking force demonstrates the balance of the map. Particularly given that that particular attacking force (Minions and range) doesn't have any issues climbing the ladders. To me, this suggests that the defense has a significant advantage in that scenario. I'm not sure that's true, mind you, but that's the conclusion I would draw from those tests.

It would be more illustrative if you tried flipping attacker and defender with the armies otherwise unchanged.

I didn't realize how highly rated the majority of the attacking army was on SP's rankings. For my next game, the elf wizards will be the attackers, and the defenders will be an Utgar All-Star hero team with Cyprien, Mimring, NGS, MBS, 9K, and Marcu.

[dok]

Originally Posted by gorthan313

I didn't realize how highly rated the majority of the attacking army was on SP's rankings. For my next game, the elf wizards will be the attackers, and the defenders will be an Utgar All-Star hero team with Cyprien, Mimring, NGS, MBS, 9K, and Marcu.

Cool; that does seem like a more balanced fight, although both DW9k and Mimring have the potential to deliver a beating on a tightly clustered pack of elves. You might want to substitute Sonya in for MBS, just to give you less order markers to juggle. I'd also be tempted to toss NGS/Marcu for some Arrow Gruts and Swog Riders, if you've got them.

My intuition is that the elves work better as attackers than defenders in this scenario, because they can use the yo-yo tactic to pull defenders off the castle walls.

[KCU Master 2007]

When I played 2 games back to back we flipped the armies without changing a thing, the attackers won both times (that's the short version of my previous post).

I think I'm gonna try to get her to play an almost all A- - A+ army next time just for balances sake. Well see how it goes.

[MI_Tiger]

This task is a lot to take on, but I love the idea of thoroughly play-testing and "approving" asymetrical maps. Great idea!

I'd like you to take a look at an asymetrical map that was used in a Michigan tournament last year. It is really more "pseudo-symetrical", but is so asymetrical in appearance that I thought it worth a look. After a few games on the map, I think it is fairly well balanced for each side with one exception - the Airborne Elite can drop into the "Spire" and can attack the closest start zone immediatly. This isn't normally a map problem (that is kind of the function of the AE), but the battlements provide a little too much protection. The crouching AE in particular can be completely hidden from the ground but still able to attack due to the battlements.

The map is "Watch Tower" designed by waycoolsuperdude. I'm afraid I don't have a picture of the completed map, but I did find the build instructions. I'll try to build this in real life or in VS this weekend and add a picture.

Watch Tower Build Instructions

[KCU Master 2007]

Do you think maybe you could post another PDF too? I can't download this one to get a look at it.

[Elf_Archer]

Isn't turret rocks pseudo-symetric?

Other than that, I like the idea. This goes with the divided starting zones in tournament maps thread that was featured on This Week at Heroscapers.