Master set 1 vs. Master set 2 : A players perspective

[keglo]

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Your second point is fine, but I don't get the first one. RotV isn't being retired or phased out or anything. It's just not in production right now. The HS creators have stated (and proven by the wave rereleases) that nothing will go out of print, it all just goes in cycles. We have wave's 1-7 and you can find any of them somewhere. We have master sets 1-2 and it works the same way. I haven't heard of a set being completely gone, though they can be gone in most areas.

I hope you are correct that RotV will still be produced. I only have my own personal taste to go by but I still believe that SotM is not worthy of master set status. Even if they keep producing both master sets you will most likely not see them both sitting on the shelf at the same time. It just seems to me that the long periods of time where SotM is the only master set sitting on shelves that it will attract fewer new customers. I think a Rotv master set sitting next to a SotM large expansion would generate many more sale of both. Just my humble opinion.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

You could make a solid argument that the RotV master set is flawed in some ways because of its diversity. Very few figures work directly with each other in RotV...

I would argue the exact opposite. Because of its diversity, RotV figures work better with each other than SotM figures. For example Raelin + Stealth Dodging Krav, Raelin + Counter-Striking Izumi, or Thorgrim/Finn with all the unique squads/heroes. In SotM there is only Nagrubs + Tor-Kul-Na and Hive + Stingers/Drudge and I could argue that the Hive is often little more than a 160 point target.

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

and you'd be hard pressed to come up with anything truly competitive in terms of tournament play using just that set.

I haven't seen a completive tournament army with just a SoTM master set either. Granted I have only been to one tournament but in it I played against....

from RotV:
Raelin
Sgt. Drake
Izumi Samurai
Krav Maga Agents
Airborne Elite

and from SotM:
Marro Stingers(3 times)
Major Q10(5 times)

I interpret this as meaning that RotV has many good, tournament competitive figures while SotM has fewer though perhaps better tournament competitive figures.

Originally Posted by Wind Lane

Personally, I am pleased as punch to own multiple copies of both sets. It's apples and oranges really, sure, they're both fruit, but they're not quite the same thing.

Sure do taste good though.

I agree completely with this. :P


The big difference I see between RotV and SotM is that RotV is more strategical and SotM is more tactical. In RotV no one tells you which figures work well together or which figures counter other figures. This means some of the hardest and most important decisions come before the battle even takes place in the form of army selection. In SotM the cards explicitly say that the Nagrubs mesh(bond) with their Hivelord and that the Hive mesh(bond) with Drudge/Stingers. You can also just look at the figures to see that the Marro belong together. But to make up for the lack of pre-game strategic planning, SotM adds more in-game tactical planning due to having common squads. To use common squads to their full potential you must careful about their movements and formations to compensate for losses.

All of this means that RotV is easier on beginners because in my experience beginners have a hard time using common squads effectively. With uniques, they just pour order markers on them and advance them to attack until they die. This strategy fails when applied to common squads since it usually results in one or two members of a squad facing down a concentrated attack while the rest of the squad is too far away to do anything.

All in all, RotV gets my vote as best master set because of better terrain and more varied figures.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Eckels

Why is it better to have to choose between two specific versions of the same character, than two distinct characters? To have a built-in disadvantage? That doesn't sound smart. I understand your point about why you think they did it, but it doesn't mean that it SHOULD have been done.
...
If they really wanted to re-issue Drake and Raelin, they should have thrown them in a "Heroes revisited" expansion set and left it at that.
...
As for having to increase the army card points just for the privilege of using both Raelins in one game, I still disagree. Each character should have points based on their own values (with the exception of characters with bonded abilties), NOT based on the possibility of having two individual figures together in the same army. Otherwise, both figures are devalued if you only elect to draft one of them.

Not picking on you here-- I can agree to disagree-- but I think you need to recognize that not every element of the game is destined to find a good home with every player. I know there are players out there who like the random stuff-- Runa, the revive glpyh, and Mitonsoul. I loathe those particular powers, but I recognize that they serve a segment of the Heroscaper population that either A) likes that lack of control or B) is killercactus. They have a meaningful purpose, even though that purpose isn't to fight for me.

They can't possibly make 100% of the figures appeal to both of us. I'm most interested in a figure's cost, attack power, and order marker efficiency. I like it that Marcu, Isamu, and Ashigaru Harquebus have 1 defense, and that the Drudge and Stingers have 5 range, because I generally value the corresponding decrease in cost more than I value more than what those figures give up. New Drake and new Raelin are not aggressively priced as it is. With new names and therefore higher prices, they'd only slip deeper into the B-list than they already have.

For that reason, I'm excited about Aquilla's figures. Because they will have a built-in disadvantage (flagbearer incompatibility), the fair price for most if not all cards can be slightly cheaper as Aquilla cards. I mean, if you have the same stats on a Vydar ranged unit and an Aquilla ranged unit, the fact that one can benefit from Laglor and one can't should be worth a little price break to the new guys. Likewise, I hope we see many more same-name units, because I want my armies to exploit all opportunities for price reduction. Just because the SotM units aren't aimed at you personally doesn't mean it's a worse introduction to the game for new players in general.

Originally Posted by Eckels

To rename these two characters puts a built-in disadvanage on this game (for the reasons we both state), which, for a game that is the SAME PRICE as the original master system, greatly reduces it's value.

I don't follow you. If you buy RotV, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in SotM. If you buy SotM, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in RotV. Even if you think the renaming is a liability, doesn't it hurt both sets the same?

[Eckels]

Originally Posted by rdhight

Not picking on you here-- I can agree to disagree-- but I think you need to recognize that not every element of the game is destined to find a good home with every player. I know there are players out there who like the random stuff-- Runa, the revive glpyh, and Mitonsoul. I loathe those particular powers, but I recognize that they serve a segment of the Heroscaper population that either A) likes that lack of control or B) is killercactus. They have a meaningful purpose, even though that purpose isn't to fight for me.

They can't possibly make 100% of the figures appeal to both of us. I'm most interested in a figure's cost, attack power, and order marker efficiency. I like it that Marcu, Isamu, and Ashigaru Harquebus have 1 defense, and that the Drudge and Stingers have 5 range, because I generally value the corresponding decrease in cost more than I value more than what those figures give up. New Drake and new Raelin are not aggressively priced as it is. With new names and therefore higher prices, they'd only slip deeper into the B-list than they already have.

For that reason, I'm excited about Aquilla's figures. Because they will have a built-in disadvantage (flagbearer incompatibility), the fair price for most if not all cards can be slightly cheaper as Aquilla cards. I mean, if you have the same stats on a Vydar ranged unit and an Aquilla ranged unit, the fact that one can benefit from Laglor and one can't should be worth a little price break to the new guys. Likewise, I hope we see many more same-name units, because I want my armies to exploit all opportunities for price reduction. Just because the SotM units aren't aimed at you personally doesn't mean it's a worse introduction to the game for new players in general.

I feel dumb right now because I don't have any of those units you mention (cept raelin and drake and the marros of course). And what's killercactus? And the flagbearers look awesome, but I haven't the funds to spare at the moment.

Originally Posted by rdhight

I don't follow you. If you buy RotV, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in SotM. If you buy SotM, you're getting two figures who can't be played with their counterparts in RotV. Even if you think the renaming is a liability, doesn't it hurt both sets the same?

It sounds like you follow me perfectly. It DOES hurt both sets the same. It was a BAD choice on the part of hasbro, which is my point exactly.

If it was Hasbro's intention to draw in more first time users, the set should have had MORE land, with more building options, and a wider variety of figures. Instead they put together a sloppy overpriced grab-bag of duplicast bone colored garbage.

And I guess china must have been having a sale on dark green.

It's a crappy excuse for a master set. It's a overpriced expansion targeted at Heroscape addicts. It should have been called "The Swamp Set Expansion".

[soberman]

Originally Posted by rdhight

This makes no sense. RotV and SotM are both equally master sets. Both have an equal amount to say about what a master set "really is."

Personally, I believe the sole criterion for being dubbed a "master set" is that all the requisite components for play out of the box are included. Marvel, an even smaller set, has been deemed a Master Set for this reason as well, but that gets disputed nowhere near as frequently because many here want to the games to be regarded as seperate entities.

So which is it? It can't be both.

Also, regarding the lack of common squads for the good guy team, I think sound marketing decisions were made with the packaging of this set. If it were my first MS, I'd be thirsty as a sinner in heck for booster packs. Moreover, giving the Marro 2 common squads impresses upon the masses of non-gaming hoi-polloi just how much mulitple squads enhance gameplay. RotV, for all it's great qualities, fell short in this department.

I will admit, those 3 empty hex spaces in the top tier of the block of tiles annoyed me a tad, and I do wish they had included a cool LOS blocker besides the hive, like some hex-mounted rocks or something, but otherwise, I LOVE SotM. The Hive takes up some of the space in the box that housed other things in RotV, but the hive is freaking cool as heck!
____________________
now playing: Huntingtons File Under Ramones

[Disposable Hero]

Master Set 1 was better. Not enough variety in 2, but plenty in 1.5 (and by 1.5,I mean Marvel).

[Toad Rocket]

Well I got the SOTM first. It was a good intro into the game, though when we got SOTM for my son we thought off the bat the ROTV kit would of been better.

SOTM succeeds in that it has multiple common squads. Having a Marro VS others is both good and bad. Good in that it identifies a bad guy to defeat, bad in that it limits armies pretty much out of the gate. However, lack of land became an issue pretty fast. Especially once we bought a couple of booster packs.

ROTV is much better all around master set. Alot of variety, alot of land, and LOS blockers. The terrain options alone make this set the winner. Plus with the variety of units your not compelled to make a themed army, mostly because you really cant. The only thing you dont get out of ROTV is the feel of common squads. But for just getting into the game, thats really not a big issue.

And yes, duplicates of Raelin and Drake was an absolute horrible idea. I really do not want 'evolved' units that cant be in the same army. Evolved units is too pokemonish.

In Summary
ROTV, great master set.
SOTM, darn good expansion
Marvel, pretty neat expansion

[Bonecrusher]

ROTV is everything you need to get into the game. Some great figures, a lot of tiles and the ruins.

SOTM is pretty good once you have ROTV. It is great to get more figures (especially stingers) but with lack of terrain it is hard for SOTM to stand alone.

[500points]

Guys this tread was dead.

[Nathify]

I'm not sure why SWARM OF THE MARRO with all of those marro'.

[Utgars_General]

I think that more people were attracted by MS1 since it had more themes in it. Some person may want a dragon, MS1. A samuri, MS1. Robots, MS1 and 2. Soldiers, MS1/2. More people were attracted by MS1, but MS2 encouages long flat battlefields. RotV encoraged mountains and rivers. SotM was more attractive with the colors of the swamp than RotV with the grass, which I use under other tiles due to it blending in/standing out.

[Killometer]

Somebody didn't check the dates when they posted in this thread a couple days ago, but since I wasn't here for the original conversation either, I'll inject my opinion now, too.

SotM really has a hard time justifying itself as a Master Set-I know, it's been said plenty of time before but that doesn't make it any less true. I was fortunate and got in on HS late (like this March ), and was able to get both RotV and SotM for about 55 bucks, including shipping. But if I had been around earlier, I would have bought both at paid full price, and would have felt ripped off when I opened SotM.

What HS really needs to do is establish a catagory called a Master Expansion, or something similiar. Bigger than an Expansion (RttFF, TT, VW, etc.) but smaller than THE Master Set (RotV) and priced somewhere in between, as appropriate. SotM is a prime example of what such a creation should encompass-a strong theme, 1000+ points of figures and a substantial amount of terrain.

Originally Posted by Eckels

I feel dumb right now because I don't have any of those units you mention (cept raelin and drake and the marros of course). And what's killercactus?

This exchage was just to funny to ignore.