The Book of Prometheus

[MrNobody]

I know it's been brought up before and nayed for thematic reasons, but I think limiting the trigger on Prepared For Anything to only on your OM reveals would do a lot.

The current version just feels a bit...absolute? And I know that's thematic for how the character works in the story, but it's really powerful and doesn't always lead to the most dynamic gameplay, due to the fact that Prometheus merely being in range means that he can choose exactly the right moment to screw the enemy over every round. There's very little tension for the Prometheus player to try to guess when and where to burn the marker every round, it's just "Oh, that thing you're about to do? Actually you can't do that."

If the power only works on your OM reveal, there's a fair bit of tension around the initiative roll and the first OM. As the F4 player, I'm asking if it's worth putting OM1 on Reed to see if I can get that first turn in before being negated. As the Prometheus player, I'm wondering if putting the marker on Reed is still worth it if I lose initiative. I think it would do a lot to shake up gameplay, which might be better than the same design, just with lower stats/markers.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Would that really help anything? My thought is that if he’s a bit more kills or he won’t feel as overwhelming.

I'm not sure what you're asking on the second half there. But I think the chance of having a solid opening turn could be big in helping the balance. As of now, he can neuter the foe from turn 1, and that comes after they've already had to place things expecting to be neutered. That change at leaves gives the Fan 4 (for example) a chance to have a big all in opener where they don't have to worry about negations, or Turtles to have a big Turtle Power turn.

Just a thought. Reducing markers could also likely help some. And if you make markers completely removed from the game I think that would cut the Phantom Stranger interaction if that's a concern.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

I'm not sure what you're asking on the second half there. But I think the chance of having a solid opening turn could be big in helping the balance. As of now, he can neuter the foe from turn 1, and that comes after they've already had to place things expecting to be neutered. That change at leaves gives the Fan 4 (for example) a chance to have a big all in opener where they don't have to worry about negations, or Turtles to have a big Turtle Power turn.

I also think it requires a lot more thought on the Prometheus player's part. Currently, you get to see what your opponent is doing with their OM before you choose who to negate. With that change (marker placing on your turn only), there's a lot more guesswork involved and a lot less immediate counteraction, which I think is good from a gameplay perspective.

Just a thought. Reducing markers could also likely help some. And if you make markers completely removed from the game I think that would cut the Phantom Stranger interaction if that's a concern.

After sitting on it for an hour or so, I don't feel like the PS interaction is a huge problem. Certainly a good one, but I don't think it was driving the wins in my games.

[Lord Pyre]

I don’t want to make it only on your turns, because he specifically counters what people try to do, in the comics. If anything I’d rather it be only on opponents reveals, which I’m pretty sure that’s how I had it and it caused some issues too.

I guess I’m my games I never had an absolute on what power to negate. It was fun mind games for both players to see what power is the best target for the round.

I’d rather see another test with other changes before we change something that big. It’d totally change his play style .

I dont mind cutting Stranger interactions, I’m not totally sure what it all entails right this second. Sorry I’m on my phone and having some autocorrect difficulties. I just meant if he’s more killable maybe he won’t feel so overwhelming, since once he dies everything goes back to normal

[MrNobody]

Stranger has 2 things that work well with Prometheus
1) At the end of the round, burn the X OM on PS's card to choose a figure. Heal 1 wound off that figure and restore one of its previously spent markers.
2) Spend any OM on PS's card to add a Skull/Shield/Blank to a figure's roll.

The PFA change isn't one I'm going to fight hard for, if you feel it's not the correct move as the LD. I didn't feel too many mindgames, but then again, both the F4 and the Guardians army I played have a lot of figures with 1 really strong defining power. Maybe it would feel different with something like a Cosmic Boy, where he has 2 really strong powers I have to pick between negating on that card alone.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I don’t want to make it only on your turns, because he specifically counters what people try to do, in the comics. If anything I’d rather it be only on opponents reveals, which I’m pretty sure that’s how I had it and it caused some issues too.

I'm opposed to this as well. It isn't reactionary then. I'm more suggesting just making him have to have a revealed OM on himself to use, so that they do have a shot at getting the jump on him if they win initiative, kind of in reference to how he did end up dying.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I guess I’m my games I never had an absolute on what power to negate. It was fun mind games for both players to see what power is the best target for the round.

Yeah this is why Joker was such a powerhouse with him, because it was easy to set up one foe to be neutered, rather than actually having options and to think about what target to go with.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I’d rather see another test with other changes before we change something that big. It’d totally change his play style .

I just worry that stat changes are going to throw it off even more than expected. He's still definitely killable right now, and dropping below 5 attack would straight up be a bad call IMO. Heck, even dropping below 6 on defense feels weird to me but that's probably the general sense of some stat creep in units talking.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I dont mind cutting Stranger interactions, I’m not totally sure what it all entails right this second. Sorry I’m on my phone and having some autocorrect difficulties. I just meant if he’s more killable maybe he won’t feel so overwhelming, since once he dies everything goes back to normal

He's a ten life Magical Defense event hero. Stranger can burn an OM on himself to add a skull, shield, or blank to a roll, or at the end of the round he can use up an X to heal someone, and give them a non Order Marker marker back.

[Lord Pyre]

So does this look good? I'm anticipating more than a couple tests for this guy, so I'm not terribly worried right this second.

Start the game with 6 Download markers on this card. Once per round, after any player reveals a numbered Order Marker, if there is a revealed Order Marker on this card you may choose an opponent's common or unique figure within 8 spaces of Prometheus and immediately place a download marker on a special power on that figure's army card. That figure may not use that special power while a Download marker is on that power. At the end of the round, remove any of your Download markers on any opponent's Army Cards.

[LordVenoc]

Yeah I think that could already be a solid approach. Help make sure the Joker pairing isn't good even more, because that approach emphasizes wanting to win initiative, which Joker now really doesn't want.

[Lord Pyre]

Cool. Should still get at least one test with Joker just in case, but we're making progress!

I updated the SP, so we're ready for the next testers.

[Arch-vile]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Prometheus

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Prometheus (400), Darkseid (780) VS Nightwing, Raven, Starfire, Robin (Damian), Terra (780)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Everybody moves up. The Titans’ attacks are blocked and Darkseid one-shots Terra.

Round 2: Titans win initiative, but they are mostly blocked. Prometheus burns a download marker to block one, but takes a wound from Robin. Prometheus reveals an OM and negates Nightwing’s Acrobatic Mastery but is blocked. Prometheus burns a marker to block Raven but still takes a wound. Prometheus burns a marker against Starfire but still takes 2 wounds. Darkseid kills Nightwing.

Round 3: Robin wounds Darkseid. Prometheus negates Raven’s magical defense and Darkseid pummels 2 wounds onto her. Raven soul selfs a wound onto Prometheus. Darkseid put 3 wounds on Raven. Prometheus burns his last marker on defense, but falls to Starfire.

Round 4: Darkseid kills Raven. Darkseid takes a wound from his own omega beams. Darkseid one-shots Starfire. Robin whiffs twice.

Round 5: Robin is blocked then is killed.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Darkseid (2 wounds) wins.

Prometheus had a strong showing, negating Nightwing’s & Raven’s defensive powers allowed them to be easily killed when they would have been a major nuisance otherwise. Had the Titans won initiative in round 4 they probably would have won.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Prometheus (400), Darkseid (780) VS Wonder Woman III, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Beast Boy Cheetah (780)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Darkseid takes a wound from Omega Beams. Hawkgirl rushes Prometheus and puts a whopping 4 wounds on him, and Prometheus burns two markers on defense. Prometheus is blocked but inflicts a wound with Reactionary Combat. Hawkgirl then kills Prometheus - Prepared For Anything was useless this game. While dying at least Prometheus inflicts a wound via Reactionary Combat. Darkseid kills Hawkgirl.

Game called here as Prometheus is dead, not gonna get data from playing this out. I’ll replay it and see if Prometheus can survive longer.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Game called. Darkseid (1 wound) VS Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Beast Boy Cheetah.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Prometheus (400), Darkseid (780) VS Wonder Woman III, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Beast Boy Cheetah (780)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Hawkgirl rushes out. Prometheus burns a marker to wound Hawkgirl. Prometheus negates Hawkgirl’s flying to deny her bonus attack, then Hawkgirl rolls 5 skulls - Prometheus rolls 2 blanks and a shield and burns a marker to get a second shield. Darkseid wounds Hawkgirl. Hawkgirl attacks but Prometheus burns a marker to block. Darkseid kills Hawkgirl.

Round 2: Prometheus grabs height. Prometheus negate’s Hawkman’s Undying Love, then Hawkman moves up. Darkseid engages Hawkman and deals him 2 wounds. Hawkman disengages to go after Prometheus, rolling 4 skulls out of 9 dice, which Prometheus miraculously blocks. Darkseid then kills Hawkman, who died doing absolutely nothing.

Round 3: Prometheus negate’s Wonder Woman’s Ambassador of Justice. Wonder Woman kills Prometheus but Darkseid takes her down.

Round 4: Beast Boy Cheetah wounds Darkseid, but he easily kills Beast Boy and Wonder Woman.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Darkseid (1 wound) wins.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Pretty wide variance in results here! Prometheus really can hurt certain units with his power negation. I found it very useful in removing defensive powers for an allied beatstick to lay down the hurt, or removing an offensive power to protect himself. Prometheus’s fragility to big attacks (he can burn Download markers to reliably block small attacks) can lead to his early demise, however. Reactionary Combat was handy for some free wounds.

Felt balanced at 400. Prepared For Anything has some important limitations (once per round, required revealed OM on his card, only negates one power) that keep it from being too powerful. And he’s got a limited amount of Download Markers, so keeping the pressure on him can burn through those and prevent him from negating stuff further.

[Lord Pyre]

Awesome thanks! Looks like we're honing in on a good power level now. I don't mind him 10 or 20 points over or under where he is if he has to be, either.

Since we only have one test with the new changes, I definitely want to see at least one more. This guy still has the potential to be a steamroller, so I want to make sure we hit all angles.

Do we need to test him with Joker now? Or do we think Joker's changes will have made this combo pointless?

[IAmBatman]

Any requests for my tests?