C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

[Lyrgard]

I think I agree with foudzing on this one.

I'll break the comparison in 4 point :

• Attack power
• Mobility
• Synergies
• Staying power

Attack power
statistically, 1 attacks that touch 3 figures and 3 attacks that touch 1 figure each are the same. The first is more swingy, true, but on average it is the same effect.

So in raw power output, Qahon and Nilfeheim are equals, for the normal attack and the SA.
However, Qahon special attack is I believe more powerfull because even if Nilfheim can target more scattered foes, Qahon can both attacks a foe up to range 9 AND target figures at range event if she is engaged and the first figure didn't die from the attack. Thats a good advantage
Advantage Qahon

Mobility
Both have flying, obviously. However, Nilfheim has 6 move, compared to Qahon 5
The both have huge sculpt that can hinder their movement
Advantage Nilfheim

Synergies
Qahon has access to more bonding option, with the greenscale AND the fyorlag. It a is however I think a slight advantage (fyorlag are cheaper and faster, but they also have less defense (espacially compared to greenscale in dragon aura) and less attacks (if greenscale in dragon aura)
slight Advantage Qahon

Staying power
Qahon has one more life but one less defense. They are both huge so immune to a lot of auto wound powers, so it make Nilfheim more robust
Advantage Nilfheim

So they both have two advantages. the synergy advantage of Qahon is a slight advantage, but I think its advantage with the special power (notably behind able to hit a Raelin 9 range away) is quite a lot and compensate. Nilfheim mobility advantage can be hindered by the non-flying greenscale, so it is not a so big advantage. Staying power on the other hand is good if faced with ranged opponent.

All in one, I think it make Qahon at least as good as Nilfheim. They have both pro and cons, but I think they are pretty even.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I've always thought Quahon was better with Spiders than Greenscales anyways. Spiders are much cheaper and faster and don't have to worry about staying in her aura.

I agree that I was surprised how the spiders synergy well with Quahon.
If you don't spread Lightning Breathe kills you and if you spread it's easier for spiders to get Entangling web and deleting a OM is huge especially with a very high firepower figure such as Quahon.
Plus you have the Wyverns (or Sujoah if you want to waste some points) who help against Majors and stuff like this.

But I still think the Greenscale build is sightly better because the screen is way stronger (6 defens Greenies what's up) the Firepower is also sightly stronger. And 6 move is enough to engage ranged figures who would want to shoot at Quahon.
And Raelin don't synergies well with the spiders build whereas she does perfectly with this one.

I think Quahon is safer in the Greenscales+Rae build and way more difficult for you opponent to kill. And in this builds the win is determined by if you lose Quahon or not.

I'd give the slight edge to Greenies but the fact that Quahon is also really strong with spiders (more than Nilf with rats or PKs for example) is really in her favor.

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

BUT a failed lightning breath can set up the same opportunity for your opponent.

It can happen but don't forget that you've the bonding right after so you can do all the necessary to protect Quahon.
Really it shouldn't happen if you play Quahon catiously.

I basically agree with all the things Lyrgard said.

[Foudzing]

As I'm here my thoughts on figures not ranked yet:

Brimstone: More a fun figure than a competitive one. Impossible to use it effectively without taking big risks. Really below other dragons. C / C+

Kantono Daishi: Now you can take a ninja army to tournaments. B+

Azurite Warlord: Really strong burst ability with a bonding squad. Great help against most Romans counters. B+ / A-

B-11 Resistance Corps: A good alternative to Kravs against melee. B+ / A-

Grigor & Rogirg: Fun but Krug is almost as good as them for 50 point less. B- / C+

Varkaanan Quickblades: Good special against heroes and decent mobility thanks to Vault but it's not really what Varks needs in priority. B / B-

Varkaanan Swiftfangs: Quite cheap, allows you to play 4 Varks in a turn. Sick firepower on first turn and can win games just with an init switch. Almost mandatory in Varks build. B+

Varkaanan Darkclaws: Very strong, no real weakness. Really help Varks to deal with common squads. Mandatory in Vark build. A- / B+

Varkaanan Greyspears: Very very good firepower for ranged figures. Their tracking power work very well with wolf pack and allows them to be in position eally fast. Mandatory in Varks build. B+ / A-

Arktos: Allows the Greyspears to have the deadly 5x4 ranged attacks with height (and 4x4 without height). Can be played with other armies than Vark build because well played Kravs with 9 range are one of the most annoying thing in Heroscape. A- / B+

Bahadur: Going for him means that you Vark build will have very few figures which is already the weakness of this build. Besides this he's ok in battle and the spirit is really good on the Darkclaws. B

Manauvi: Really less interesting than the two other Varkanaan Heroes. B- / C+

Sir Orrick: Brother call works well with the bonding and he's quite solid even if a supplementary attack of 3 is not a big boost. B.

Quorick Warwitch: Flitter and 6 lifes makes her more difficult to kill than the opponent would think. Not a big offensive power or range tho. B- / B

[MegaSilver]

My variations on your post, Fouzding:

Brimstone: More a fun figure than a competitive one. Impossible to use it effectively without taking big risks Greenscales. Really below other dragons. C / C+

Azurite Warlord: Really strong burst ability with a bonding squad. Great help against most Romans counters. Armoc Vipers become viable competitively. B+ / A-

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

My variations on your post, Fouzding:

Brimstone: More a fun figure than a competitive one. Impossible to use it effectively without taking big risks Greenscales. Really below other dragons. C / C+

Even with Greenscales. You're certainly talking about the "jump-in --> clear everything --> circle with greenscales " tactic.
So either you do this when you have 4 attacks dice on the bomb and it's not really effective or either you choose to do it more often and then it's really risky because if you've a lot of chances to miss.

The fact that he doesn't have a decent ranged attack every turn makes him. C / C+

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

Azurite Warlord: Really strong burst ability with a bonding squad. Great help against most Romans counters. Armoc Vipers become viable competitively. B+ / A-

You're completely right but this does not count into Azurite Warlord ranking as he's better with Romans than with Armoc Vipers.

This should be written in Armoc ranking and not on Azurite's one.

Figures that should have their rank reviewed:
Tagawa Samuraïs: B- --> B The small Tomoe help makes them strong enough to change of category.
Armoc Vipers: B- --> B Azurite give them a good boost and make their main power finally quite useful but they're still Tier 2 or 3.
Kumiko: C+ --> B huge boost for her as she's an important part of ninja army and no OM problem anymore.
Moriko: D --> B- same, huge boost
Shiori: Kantono helps her but she's still pretty bad and you prefer play others ninjas. D --> C
Ninjas of the Northern Wind: I don't really understand why they were C+ before but they deserves a least B- now maybe B.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

You're completely right but this does not count into Azurite Warlord ranking as he's better with Romans than with Armoc Vipers.

Have you played with both of them with Azzy? I played with Azzy+Armocs and it was a devastating army. Dealt massive damage to my enemies. I haven't played him with Romans though. (Doubt I ever will, due to my fascination with Vipers! )

Armoc Vipers should be at the same rankings as Venoc Vipers, now. B+ Azurite Warlord boosts their usefulness significantly.

[Foudzing]

I see also that the Beakface Sneaks are not rated.

Beakface Sneaks: While the defensive power can be interesting a turn composed of 2 attacks of 3 is really bad especially for 15 points figures. Also you can't really use them as a passive screen because you have to attack in order to move 4 Sneaks. C

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

Armoc Vipers should be at the same rankings as Venoc Vipers, now. B+ Azurite Warlord boosts their usefulness significantly.

Damn vipers are B+.
They're not bad but they have so many hardcounters now.

I believe some others classic scape figure must be reviewed.

For example I don't fell the Knights are A anymore now that there is many many melee hardcounters.
Same for 10th they're far to be the only counter to bonding melee now. Put them to A- should be considered.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by Foudzing

As I'm here my thoughts on figures not ranked yet:

Brimstone: More a fun figure than a competitive one. Impossible to use it effectively without taking big risks. Really below other dragons. C / C+

Kantono Daishi: Now you can take a ninja army to tournaments. B+

Azurite Warlord: Really strong burst ability with a bonding squad. Great help against most Romans counters. B+ / A-



B-11 Resistance Corps: A good alternative to Kravs against melee. B+ / A-

Grigor & Rogirg: Fun but Krug is almost as good as them for 50 point less. B- / C+



Varkaanan Quickblades: Good special against heroes and decent mobility thanks to Vault but it's not really what Varks needs in priority. B / B-

Varkaanan Swiftfangs: Quite cheap, allows you to play 4 Varks in a turn. Sick firepower on first turn and can win games just with an init switch. Almost mandatory in Varks build. B+

Varkaanan Darkclaws: Very strong, no real weakness. Really help Varks to deal with common squads. Mandatory in Vark build. A- / B+

Varkaanan Greyspears: Very very good firepower for ranged figures. Their tracking power work very well with wolf pack and allows them to be in position eally fast. Mandatory in Varks build. B+ / A-

Arktos: Allows the Greyspears to have the deadly 5x4 ranged attac with height (and 4x4 without height). Can be played with other armies than Vark build because well played Kravs with 9 range are one of the most annoying thing in Heroscape. A- / B+

Bahadur: Going for him means that you Vark build will have very few figures which is already the weakness of this build. Besides this he's ok in battle and the spirit is really good on the Darkclaws. B

Manauvi: Really less interesting than the two other Varkanaan Heroes. B- / C+

Sir Orrick: Brother call works well with the bonding and he's quite solid even if a supplementary attack of 3 is not a big boost. B.

Quorick Warwitch: Flitter and 6 lifes makes her more difficult to kill than the opponent would think. Not a big offensive power or range tho. B- / B

I've played quite a bit with the Varkanaans. It's hard to rank them individually, as they are strongest at most point values undiluted by non-Varkaanan units. Greyspears/Artos are a powerful combination, worth an A for both. The Swiftfangs are the other 4 unit squad, fast and deadly on the first OM, but a bit fragile otherwise, and can be screened out (Deathreavers). The Quickblades provide a Special Attack to deal with them, move 8 spaces every turn (not just the first), while Vault makes them even quicker (leaping 7 levels), and their 4 Defense is solid. I'd give them a higher ranking than the Swiftfangs. The Darkclaws, as nice as they are, are expensive melee squad specialists. The heroes, Bahadur and Manauvi, allow more versatility to deal with a wider variety of situations, and fill in more powerfully when squad units are lost.

[Arch-vile]

I've played the Varks a TON, so I'll offer my opinions as well on their ranking, along with some other units.

Azurite Warlord: Azurite is both tough & strong, but falls quickly when using Furious Wrath. A failed Furious Wrath can mean death. He's a lot of points and many times the other Warlords would have been a better pick. Armocs love him, of course. B/B+

B-11 Resistance Corps: Solid ranged squad, especially useful when only one is left. B/B+

Grigor & Rogirg: Incredibly powerful & resilient with Arrow Gruts. Don't underestimate this guy. Krug, however, is cheaper and often a better pick. B

Varkaanan Quickblades: Great special attack, and Vault means they move fast. But they fall quickly. B

Varkaanan Swiftfangs: Cheap, fast, 4-figure squad. Great to put Wolf Spirits on. B/B+

Varkaanan Darkclaws: They die too quickly for me, only 4 defense on 3 40 point figures is hard to swallow when one or two falls. Offensive output is great, though. B-/B

Varkaanan Greyspears: Best of the Varks, by far. Having a ranged squad is almost a necessity in 'scape, and the fact that the Greyspears have 4 figures is just icing on the cake. B+/A-

Arktos: Very Helpful to the Greyspears, but falls quickly and his attack output often isn't worth a Wolf Pack turn. B

Bahadur: That 6 attack is brutal when combined with Wolf Pack. And when Bahadur is destroyed, your other wolves get stronger. B+

Manauvi: Swingy, and dies quickly. Can win you a game with some lucky rolls and when he inevitably dies he still helps your other units. B-

Sir Orrick: Really only a filler champion. Good with MacDirks. B-

Quorick Warwitch: Very annoying to melee & low-defense armies. Terrible against range. B-

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Greyspears/Artos are a powerful combination, worth an A for both.

So either you play them in a Vark build.
A Vark build will most of the time will lose against a build which is mainly composed of A or A+ units.
So they don't deserve the A they don't carrythe Varks hard enough.

Either you think you can play this duo in many other armies.
Sure 4x4 is strong and 5x4 wins games but you pay 205 points for doing this once (or twice if you're lucky) in the game.
Don't deserve A.

But I agree that a Rae+Kravs+rats+Arktos+Greyspears army is very scary that's why I think Arktos and Greyspears should be at the very least B+.
But not A they're too fragile and squishy for this rank.

Originally Posted by kolakoski

The Quickblades provide a Special Attack to deal with them, move 8 spaces every turn (not just the first), while Vault makes them even quicker (leaping 7 levels), and their 4 Defense is solid. I'd give them a higher ranking than the Swiftfangs.

Where did you see that the Quickblades move is 8?

I see Arch-Vile and I agree on most figures.
Darkclaws are the big diffference, they're quite swingy for sure and Arch-Vile arguments are good. But you should keep them for between mid-game and end-game and you'll tell me the results.
I think I saw a bit high with A- tho. B+ is enough.

Of course no C+ or less at all or no A- or more at all from Arch-Vile. It seems that you love your children equally.
Note that if you "enlarge" Arch-Vile ranks they're quite like mines.

[Arch-vile]

I'm a C3V Playtester Foudzing, I naturally assume most of the C3V units are around a "B" range. I'm a little biased. Truly, though, I think this latest wave is one of the most balanced C3V waves in a while. Orrick can't be a C+, knights are too good, though I could see C+ for Quorik Warwitch. I gave the Greyspears an A-. (I see the Varks as a B to B+ build overall.)

I just don't see the B-11 as A- worthy. The other playtesters had better luck/skill than I with the B-11, which may be influencing me there. The Azurite Warlord is just so expensive! 145 points will buy you a unit that will destroy something, but then your other Warlord options are limited. Azurite Warlord could be A-, but I'm skeptical still. Me-Burq-Sa and Marcus are almost required in Roman builds, and I'd rather add Raelin, Ranged Help, etc. before adding Azurite. I prefer Azurite by far with the Armocs, they become a speedy assassin squad, and Slither often bypasses natural "slow-down areas" of maps to surprise your opponent. Plus, nobody worries when seeing Armocs across the board.

I'll have to try saving the Darkclaws for endgame like you suggest. My usual strategy with the Wolf Pack is to spread out for massive board control, so that I'm nearly always getting 4 attacks per turn.

[caps]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

I've played quite a bit with the Varkanaans. It's hard to rank them individually, as they are strongest at most point values undiluted by non-Varkaanan units. Greyspears/Artos are a powerful combination, worth an A for both. The Swiftfangs are the other 4 unit squad, fast and deadly on the first OM, but a bit fragile otherwise, and can be screened out (Deathreavers). The Quickblades provide a Special Attack to deal with them, move 8 spaces every turn (not just the first), while Vault makes them even quicker (leaping 7 levels), and their 4 Defense is solid. I'd give them a higher ranking than the Swiftfangs. The Darkclaws, as nice as they are, are expensive melee squad specialists. The heroes, Bahadur and Manauvi, allow more versatility to deal with a wider variety of situations, and fill in more powerfully when squad units are lost.

What's this? I agree with kolakoski! (Well, about the bold parts anyways)