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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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#241
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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#242
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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1. You have to be playing 4th Mass. (If you're not, then you're almost universally better off running either Eltahale or Alastair + another squad of commons) 2. Following on from 1, you have to be at least 170 points under the point limit while still having a viable number of 4th. (In practice, this usually means that Drake is an unviable pick at point limits of 445 or less) 3. The point/hex limit must be such that it is not more viable to run some combination of Alastair, Eldgrim or another squad of 4th. (e.g. if you're 180 points under then Alastair + an extra squad of 4th is a better choice than Drake; you yourself mentioned how an extra 2 squads of 4th + Eldgrim is also a better pick if you have the spare hexes) I don't doubt that Sgt. Drake can provide A-level value to the 4th Mass at a specific point total and hex limit. But that's the thing; it's only the 4th Mass, and it's only at a handful of combinations of point totals and hex limits. It's incredibly uncommon that you'll ever find him being the best choice for your bring 1 army, and it doesn't seem right to me that for a figure who requires such specific circumstances to work to be A- rank. I think B+ is a more fitting ranking; he can be a great pick under the right circumstances, but the fact that he only really works under those specific circumstances prevents him from being ranked among the A tiers. “Just because I disagree with you, does not mean that I hate you. We need to relearn that in our society" - Morgan Freeman Last edited by Grey Waves; March 30th, 2022 at 01:47 AM. |
#243
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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By your reasoning Migol should be F tier cause there is no reason to take him over Ulfrid or Morgrimm, or Darrack + whatever. In a bring1 army you should never ever bring Migol but does Migol deserve F tier? Drake V2 is a odd case, it does not have bonding, it does not have real synergy, you just take him to un-clog your SZ while not losing 1 defense die. But it's a good sidekick. I think your Alastar appreciation is biaised because of Alastar being played in bonding armies where he obviously shine more than Drake in a 4th Mass build who is just here to clean'up in endgame or extremly specific situations. I don't think Alastar holds his A- at all in a 4th Mass build. While overextend can surprise sometimes, he's very fragile and Drake is a much better game closer, and that's what 4th Mass needs, they don't need a 10move rush for 1 attack of 5 around the map. 19 games out of 20 you'll not put any OM on the hero until he's the last man standing (or near) in your army, and at this game I feel Sgt. Drake is so much better, even being 60points more. Tho I agree ranged squads spam is much less frequent than before and Drake is on the decline just like 4th Mass is. But still not deserve B+. |
#244
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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Especially in 4x400 type armies, he's really nice to have as a heavy hitter to threaten Q9, a dragon, Sir Gilbert, Raelin, or any other 'big' figure. He's also quite nice to put an OM3 on, followed by an OM1, to try and get 4 consecutive attacks into whatever figure he's trying to assassinate. 10 dice in 1 turn, and potentially 20 total over back to back turns, can absolutely turn a game you're gonna lose (i.e. facing Q9) into one you can win. He's a really nice piece to use when you need high variance to have a chance at turning the game around during the mid-game stages. It's true that Alastair is more vulnerable, but if my opponent is throwing dice at him instead of 4th, I'm usually OK with that, and to pull off the move I described above he only really needs to have 2 life left anyways. I might agree that he's an inferior end-game piece to Drake just based on survivability, but I don't think that's the optimal role for any paired hero in a 4th / valiant build. Drake / Alastair / Charos / whomever, I want them developed early to take some fire off the 4th and threaten stuff the 4th has trouble killing. |
#245
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
Hmmm not convinced at all by this strategy. To me 4th Mass threaten big figures as much as Alastar do, and it would be a big mistake from you opponent to just let Alastar get a double 5 attack in a turn.
Imo no matter the 4th mass build putting OMs on valiant heroes in the early and mid game is not worth the risk and it just makes your life harder for nothing. It's fancy and can work but imo full 4th is way more safe and efficient. 4th Mass builds would be stronger without them it was proven times and times, they are just here to unclog. |
#246
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
Gonna respond to this in parts.
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Anyway, suffice to say that I don't find your arguments for Drake/against Alastair to be compelling and would still support a drop for Sgt Drake SOTM to B+ tier. “Just because I disagree with you, does not mean that I hate you. We need to relearn that in our society" - Morgan Freeman Last edited by Grey Waves; April 3rd, 2022 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Typo |
#247
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
Some older results:
GC 2008: SpiderPoison won Jandar (at 4-1) with 4x 4th, Drake SotM. He lost the finals game to Lonewolf's Trons, in part because there was a common attack glyph on the board, and in part because Lonewolf is probably the single best Trons player in history. Mattser Truck Rally made Day 2 of Main Event with 5x 4th, Drake SotM (pre-RtW). GC 2012: Rollitontop made Day 2 with 4x 4th, Drake SotM (2nd year of RtW; average power level was still A). There aren't really good results after this, as formats have shifted substantially. 450 points was a pretty common/standard point total, and the 4x 4th, Drake SotM fit perfectly there. While the 6x 4th, Eldgrim build is stronger (and had good results), it required 24 hexes, and the Drake version really isn't too far below that in power level. Unsurprisingly, I didn't see a single 4th + Alastair result (not that I checked old local tourney results, but I imagine the trend would continue). I think high B+ or low A- is fine for Drake. He's definitely better than Migol, and he plays well with 4th. He's pretty close to Cyprien imo, and I think the average Drake + 4th build is better than the average Cyprien + whatever build. Part of that is the strength of the 4th, but Drake definitely carries his weight. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#249
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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There likely won’t be significant changes to the B+ and Under list, but I suppose there could be tweaks. For example, I’m still considering dropping Drake SotM to B+. I’ll figure out a final date for changes. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#250
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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Personally I've never understood the Drake SotM power ranking love. When I did my rankings I put Drake RotV equal with Drake SotM. Pound for pound, Drake SotM may be better, but Drake RotV slots in a much better point range for adding a big hitter to your army. Drake and Cyprien both are figures that make it clear that Heroscape is a game about armies, not about single figure performance. Both get overwhelmed by most coherent armies and don't fit into builds well. Ultimately, I think I'd personally power rank Cyprien above Drake just because Stealth Flying + Chilling Touch can win games. If you're playing Cyprien into Nilfheim Greenscales you have at least a 15% chance to win the game because 15% of the time Cyp is just going to one-shot Nilfheim. Drake doesn't have that same high-roll performance to bring up his average. I think SotM Drake's mode median and mean performance is getting stuffed by a horde of squad figures and taking out ~50 points worth of them. 10 Years of Gencon/Scapecon Battle Reports - Comic Battle Reports - Probability Calculator App - Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes "It's all about the game." - Sgt. Ernie Calhoun |
#251
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
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There are some random local results (like Strack placed 7/60 with Q9, 2x Rats, Krav, Drake SotM at TTO III, beating some A/A- builds), but the issue is that local tourneys (some of which were a big deal and featured GenCon-level competition) were largely undocumented. Maybe @Jexik has some insight here. Edit: I'm mostly just sad now because old results are pretty much forever lost. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#252
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings
I'm more convinced by Drake sotm results (appearance to day2 in cheese format is something) than Alastair results which are basically «won me a game thanks to my opponnent letting him go to my raelin and because I got lucky init switch.»
Really, replay that machup 10times, I'm pretty sure Alastair does not do **** in at least 7 games. Funny you brougth that game because Drake sotm is a monster vs this AG build without Krug. To me they have similar power level, both have their pros and cons, Alastair is cheaper and threaten more in the midgame, if he is on the board opponnent have to play with him in mind (which heroscaper2010 did not) or you can punish him. Tho to me you are basically paying 110pts just for the threat effect cause Alastair is really bottom tier in late game. Drake is less threating cause he's slower and can't double attack but he's much more consistent late game. To me they are similar level with 4th mass, Alastair do have other builds tho while Drake does not. Last edited by Foudzing; April 4th, 2022 at 10:15 AM. |
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