Public Design Workshop

[IAmBatman]

Thanks, Soundwarp. Stacking was my concern. Good advice on how to desl with it.

[johnny139]

For what it's worth my intent was also unrevealed OMs. I agree it's probably balanced with the "any OM" version, but it might drive up his cost a bit much/make him way better than Luke Cage as a Crime Fighter leader.

[MrNobody]

NAME = NIGHT THRASHER
SECRET IDENTITY = DWAYNE TAYLOR

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CRIME FIGHTER
PERSONALITY = DEDICATED

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 7
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = ???

NEW WARRIORS
After revealing an order marker on the card of a Crime Fighter you control and taking a turn with that Crime Fighter, you may remove an Order Marker from the card of another Crime Fighter you control to take a turn with that figure, adding 1 to its attack number if it has a Reckless personality. You may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

ESCRIMA ASSAULT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose up to two figures to attack. Roll 3 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. After attacking with this special attack, night thrasher may attack with this special attack one additional time.

BULLETPROOF SUIT
If a non-adjacent figure targets Night Thrasher for an attack and rolls 2 or fewer skulls, you may ignore that attack.

NAME = JUSTICE/MARVEL BOY
SECRET IDENTITY = VANCE ASTROVIK

SPECIES = MUTANT
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CRIME FIGHTER
PERSONALITY = DEDICATED

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = ???

TELEKINETIC THROW 13
After moving and before attacking, you may choose a small or medium figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Justice. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 13 or higher, you may place the chosen figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for damage. If you roll 11 or higher, the figure receives 1 wound. Chosen figures do not take any leaving engagement attacks.

TELEKINETIC DEFENDER
If there is at least one Order Marker on this card, when an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Justice targets a figure you control for a normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. Before rolling, you may choose to subtract 3 from your roll. If you roll 13 or higher, the figure cannot attack this turn and if you subtracted 3 from your roll, the figure receives a wound.

DEDICATED SOLIDARITY
As long as all of your revealed Order Markers are on Unique Dedicated Heroes, they add 1 to their Defense numbers.

SUPER STRENGTH

FLYING

Okay here's the changes discussed. I figure it's worth trying Night Thrasher with the ability to remove revealed OMs. I think he should absolutely be a worse generalist Crime Fighter leader than Cage, but not by too much. I see him somewhere in the 170-200 range. He's basically teenage Batman who leads a team of other teenagers, so Nightwing seems like a good base. I'd be worried about a drop in defense making him too fragile, but a drop in range is probably fine.

[Ronin]

Dig the direction on the Warriors there.

I could see Night Thrasher losing a defense die - pushes him that much more toward Justice.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Dig the direction on the Warriors there.

I could see Night Thrasher losing a defense die - pushes him that much more toward Justice.

I’m having a really hard time accepting a 4 defense Night Thrasher. Thematically, he’s supposed to be wearing some pretty strong armor, and he has the acrobatic training to dodge a lot of attacks. I think he’s about Nightwing level? Mechanically, I feel like it would just make him too much of a wuss for what should be a lead-from-the-front type. I’m not saying he needs to be crazy tough but I think he should be able to run around and whack people with sticks, not hide behind Justice. I feel like L4D5 with a light defensive power seems perfect for him imo.

[Yodaking]

I had the same thought about dropping the defense down to 4 with the bulletproof suit letting him just flat out ignore 1 & 2 skull attack rolls at range.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I had the same thought about dropping the defense down to 4 with the bulletproof suit letting him just flat out ignore 1 & 2 skull attack rolls at range.

If that's generally what the group thinks, then of course I'll yield. But I think the same survivability as Batwoman (technically even less cause he can't equip Smoke Pellets and Flashbangs) is perfect for him. I think it would make more sense to limit his bonding before nerfing his defense to a level I don't feel fits the character.

[Yodaking]

Did Batwoman end up with 5 def & the bulletproof suit then? I guess I didn't fight hard enough to stave off stat creep there as well as so many other places. When I get around to making a Thor II card, I'm guessing he'll end up at 9/9 stats in order for him to keep up with the Joneses.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Did Batwoman end up with 5 def & the bulletproof suit then? I guess I didn't fight hard enough to stave off stat creep there as well as so many other places. When I get around to making a Thor II card, I'm guessing he'll end up at 9/9 stats in order for him to keep up with the Joneses.

5 defence is pretty standard for highly-trained humans, particularly ones with body armour. I'm not seeing the issue. Bulletproof Suit honestly isn't a generally useful defensive power, and instead more one that will offer protection against certain attack types. Vs. big ranged attacks and melee hits, it doesn't matter.
4 Life/4 Defence is actually pretty damn splattable. Batwoman wouldn't have felt strong enough if dropped to that.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

It's funny you should say that because that thought is 100% evidence of power creep. Whom would you consider well trained? Black Widow? Nick Fury? 4 Defense. Nightowl? Nomad? 4 Defense. Lady Shiva? Talia? 4 Defense. Not sure I know anyone more well trained than them. The list goes on, but I think you get my point. 4 Defense used to be the baseline for well-trained humans, with only the best of the best (Batman) getting 5, but somewhere that changed.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

It's funny you should say that because that thought is 100% evidence of power creep. Whom would you consider well trained? Black Widow? Nick Fury? 4 Defense. Nightowl? Nomad? 4 Defense. Lady Shiva? Talia? 4 Defense. Not sure I know anyone more well trained than them. The list goes on, but I think you get my point. 4 Defense used to be the baseline for well-trained humans, with only the best of the best (Batman) getting 5, but somewhere that changed.

Black Widow and Lady Shiva get significant bonuses in melee combat (4+ an auto-shield is better than 5). Nick Fury is primarily a back-line leader with enough training to fight when needed. Nomad I can't speak for, but Nite-Owl is comparatively less impressive and meant to be something of a loser. Talia is, as far as I can tell, kind of underpowered.

What about Punisher? Huntress? Shi? Cheshire? Bullseye? Elektra? Zangief? Chun-Li? Swordsman? Comedian? Mother Russia? Solomon Kane? Dick Grayson Batman (who Night Thrasher's been compared with)? Red Hood? Helmut Zemo? Hell, even Shocker? There are just as many counter-examples, in fact more, many of whom are quite old designs (plenty of these are older even than Black Widow, and a lot older than Batwoman), and most of your examples have a significant defensive power to represent their skill. This standard has already exist - as power creep it's imaginary.

[quozl]

Don't get hung up on the numbers. Figure out how you want the design to feel in play.

Shredder only has 4 defense. Initially, he was going to have more (and Martial Arts Master). His skill definitely warrants it. However, he felt better with Ruthless Counterstrike and a lower defense.