Unit Debate #26 -- Finn Vs. Thorgrim

[MegaSilver]

It is now time to revive an old thread, which was deleted from existance due to to the Time Warp...

Which Viking Champion is the best, in your opinion?



1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Situational Usefulness

Next Week:

Spoiler Alert!

Say who you want to see! I'll decide from your suggestions!

MegaSilver

[tubafication]

I chose Finn. That attack die can be really useful for some figures. I think the defense is near equally important. But attack is the near edge in an attacking game.

[killercactus]

I vote Thorgrim. His Aura can be used to protect ranged figures, and his extra defense die upon death can go a long way for a lot of units.

[ICEMASTER]

I think Thorgrim is better. I use him more often to strengthen Nilfhiem.

[Brownsfan82]

Finn's attack spirit only affects normal attacks, which helps units like the Krav and Syvarris. But most tournament worthy units that are unique have special attacks, like Q9 and Nilfeim. So I voted for Thorogrim.

[Obsidian]

Thorgrim all the way baby!

I'll suggest DW9000 vs. DW8000.

[A_Train]

I find the addition of a single attack dice to be more beneficial than a single defense die. It also hurts that for the same price as Thorgrim, you can pick up Raelin.

I vote for Finn, as adding his auro to Nakitas or Krav Maga Agents has produced deadly results for me in the past. Adding Thorgrim to a unit rarely seems to produce the same noticeable results.

[Darkmage7a]

Thorgrim, The thing with knights is they have to get there. When your opponent mows you down with long range that extra defense really pays off. The attack they have is good enough as it is and finns bonus isn't as versatile.

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by A_Train

I vote for Finn, as adding his auro to Nakitas or Krav Maga Agents has produced deadly results for me in the past.

I assume by "auro" you mean spirit, right? Since Finn's aura can't effect ranged figures and Thorgrim's does, I find Thorgrim to be more versatile.

As spirits go:
Any figure can benefit from an extra defense, not every figure really benefits from an extra attack. Q9 doesn't really get a lot of benefit from Finn's spirit or anyone else with a really good special attack. For some units with high attacks (Jotun, Su-Bak-Na) the extra attack can often just be overkill.
Any unit can benefit from an extra defense. Su-Bak-Na, Krav Maga, and Braxus are just a few that come to mind.

[A_Train]

Yes, I meant Finn's spirit, not aura.

[GreenLanturn]

I'm voting Thorgrim.

For Finn to be useful he needs to adjacent to a figure that is adjacent to an enemy, and even that only yields one boosted attack. A good rule of thumb is that melee squads get less attacks than ranged squads; this leads to the conclusion that it is more difficult to set up a melee attack. For Finn to make his mark he needs something less common than melee attacks which are already more difficult than ranged attacks.

Thorgrim just has an easier time using his bonus. He protects everyone regardless of melee or range. His bonus simply happens more often.

Their spirits have some more situations attached; I think that extra defense does more for heroes, and that extra attack does more for squads (unique of course). That said, how many unique squads are actually used? 2 or 3? Airborne Elite, Marro Warriors, and Krav Maga Agents. To use Finn in an army with those squads in it you need to have some melee to benefit him while he is alive.

Finn is harder to work into an army and once there he has a harder time being effective.

[dok]

I don't remember exactly how I put this last time, but I'm going to do my best to recreate my long post from last time.

• If you're using knights, Sir Gilbert >> Finn. Yes, the knights would rather use Finn's attack bonus than Thorgrim's defensive bonus. But they would rather use Gilbert's attack bonus than Finn's, because Gilbert activations come with Jandar's dispatch, and Jandar's dispatch is exceptionally valuable for the knights.
  
  
• Thorgrim plays nicer with Gilbert than Finn does. Once you have decided you're using Gilbert with knights, the question becomes which other champion will you use, if any? The issue with Finn is that to use him well requires a lot of bonding activations, because you have to keep moving him to take advantage of his attack aura. But every bonding activation for Finn is one less roll of Jandar's dispatch.
  
  By contrast, Thorgrim can often serve his purpose simply by moving next to (or on) a glyph, or by sidling up to a pod of ranged figures. This goes to the broader point that...
  
  
• Thorgrim's aura works for ranged attackers. One of my favorite 535 point armies is Gilbert, Thorgrim, and a bunch of knights and 4th Mass. This works great because you can just park Thorgrim wherever you want to set your 4th Mass up, and you've got 4 defense 4th Mass. Because ranged figures don't need to move around as much to attack, an aura that only works on adjacent figures is much more easy for ranged figures to use without moving.
  
  So far I haven't addressed the spirits at all, but
  
  
• Thorgrim's spirit is valuable for a much wider range of figures. I don't dispute for a moment the value of Finn's spirit on the unique ranged multiple/deadly attackers - KMA and AE and Marro Warriors and Skahen and Syvarris and Zetacron and the Nakitas. But really, that's about it. Sure, a lot of other unique figures benefit from an extra attack die, but adding one to a single attack or an adjacent attack is not that great. Moreover, many of the best unique figures rely on special attacks, and would hardly benefit from Finn's spirit at all. Much like picking the 4th Mass compels a specific range of builds, picking Finn only makes sense if you have one of a small range of figures to attach his spirit to.
  
  By contrast, Thorgrim's spirit is useful to literally every unique figure in the game. The most dangerous heroes in the game, such as Braxas or Major Q9 or Nilfheim, benefit enormously from an extra point of defense. Increasing the surivivability of a key cheerleader like Raelin or Gilbert can be valuable as well. And Thorgrim's spirit is useful on those unique ranged multiple attackers I mentioned above, as well.