Skeletons and Vampire Necromancer pre-Auggies discussion

[Tolamos]

The idea I had for these figures is to make an army that just keeps comming back. The skeletons come in a variety, but all are dificult to hit from a range because they are so thin. The main thing to do with this army is just keep Viorica alive.





Please post thoughts. Thanks!

[Jonny Jon]

I love the pics!
Is skeletal dodge supposed to work against special attacks?
Necromancy, leaves out figures destroyed by special powers.

they seem to move fast for skeletons, imo, and they seem to be very powerful; rivaling squads that have won tournaments. (this may be offset by the fact that they don't bond)

I also really like the necromancy idea for that sculpt. I tried to think of an original heroscape person that could be used as a necromancer to bond a skeleton army with, but could not find one I thought fit the bill. So good job on that Idea.

[Tolamos]

Thanks for the input Jonny Jon!

Ya, I was thinking about changing skeletal dodge to only work against normal attacks, but then they got destroyed in a playtest. I am still not sure if I am going to change it yet.

The skeletons move fast because they don't have all the flesh that live figures do. Not as much weight to hold them back.

I will admit that they are powerful. I am open to any suggestions.

[Jonny Jon]

also, should necromancy be able to revive previously undead characters?

I'm going to send you a pm.

*and you forget that skeletons don't have muscles either. Think of any movie you watched. They weren't sprinting skeletons.

[Dad_Scaper]

Two thoughts/concerns off the top of my head.

First of all, I suspect Vicoria and each of the squads is significantly underpriced. Did you playtest this army?

Second of all, and on a related note, this mechanic creates an unusually powerful synergy, in that Necromancy permits the replacement of melee units with range units and vice versa. You won't roll that 17+ frequently, but you will be rolling that 20 sider often, so you'll be hitting it a few times each game, normally.

[dalu]

I love the pics, figs and thematic.
Original combination and adaptation of classic Heroscape powers.
The cards are very well done.
Great job.

"Skeletal Dodge" is the same power as "Stealth Dodge".
It is very powerful, but fortunately your figs have lower defenses than the Krav Maga Agents.
I like all Skeletal figs have this power AND a low defense.
But I don't like they move so fast.

Skeletal Swordmen

• Paralysing Fear 16 give 25% chance for 3 attacks with 3 dice against no defense !!!
  Too powerful, you can kill everything in one turn with this.
  Maybe you can limit the power to small or medium, or only to common squads figures (heroes have no fear !), ...
• This power is very useful against rats: defense 0 instead of 4, and no Scatter.
• It will also make wonders to tie down Greenscales or Heavy Gruts, even if they are boosted by a Dragon or an Orc Champion.

Skeletal Spearmen

• Let's compare with the Roman Legionnaires

Roman legionnaires: Squad of 4, Move 4, Attack 3, Defense 2, Shield Wall, Warlord Bonding, 50 points
Skeletals Spearmen: Squad of 3, Move 6, Attack 4, Defense 2, Shield Wall, Dodge, 50 points
+2 move, +1 attack and Dodge seems better to me.
Speed, 3 attacks of 4 and Dodge is better than slow 4x3 dices attacks.

• Squeletal Dodge + Shield Wall is very strong.
  3 skeletals in formation (def=4 and Dodge) have 80% chance to avoid any ranged attack !

• Let's compare Skeletals Spearmen in formation with the Capuans backed by Spartacus.
  Capuan Gladiators: Squad of 3, Move 6, Attack 4, Defense 4, Bonding, 70 points + 200 points for Spartacus.
  Skeletal Spearmen: Squad of 3, Move 6, Attack 4, Defense 4, Dodge, 50 points.

Your Skeletal Spearmen are strong units !

Skeletal Archers

• Compare with the very good Marro Stingers:
  Marro Stingers : Squad of 3, Move 5, Range 5, Attack 3, Defense 3, (Stinger Drain), 60 points.
  Skeletal Archers: Squad of 3, Move 6, Range 6, Attack 3, Defense 1 + Dodge, 50 points.
• I think the +1 move and +1 range make your Skeletal Archers better than the Stingers, event if Stingers have a better defense.

Viorica Esenwein

• Necromancy give 20% chance to avoid any damage to any Skeletal.
  If you have 6 Skeletal squads (18 figs) you can expect 4 success in a game (20% of 18 ) with Necromancy.

• Viorica worth the 50 points invested if there are many squads: 8 lives for 50 points (Viorica's lifes and 4 Skeletal ...)
  Better to take her rather than one more Skeletal squad.
  Moreover, those replaced by Necromancy will stay in their right place.

Originally Posted by Tolamos

.. I was thinking about changing skeletal dodge to only work against normal attacks, but then they got destroyed in a playtest...

Customs which always win are bad customs.
Special attack is not so frequent, and is taken into account in the cost of the figs.
Allowing many low cost common squads to deny Special Attacks will break the game.

My conclusions:
They are too powerful for their cost.
But I like their cost.
I prefer to weaken them a bit.

I suggest you to:

• Reduce their move to 5.
• Reduce Paralysing Fear to only work against some figs (common squad and/or small or medium figures)
• Make Skeletal Dodge to only work against normal attacks.
  (Maybe you can compensate (if you want) by adding an aura to Viorica: "All figures with the Skeletal Dodge power within 5 clear sight spaces of Victoria can also use Skeletal Dodge against a ranged Special Attack.")

Army ideas:

• 6x Mixed Skeletal squads (300 pts)
• Viorica (50 pts)
• Cyprien (chilling), Mimring (ranged special) or Q10 (ranged special) (150 pts)

Total 500 pts, 20 figs, 20 or 21 hexes.
For 520 points, you can prefer Moltenclaw.


PS: can you give references for the figs (name, cost, availability, ...)

[Killometer]

As the cards are written:

• Viorica is way too cheap with Necromancy's range of 10, and the fact that right now she can replace any figure that is killed, regardless of who's army it was a part of.
• Since Skeletal Dodge is the exact same thing as Stealth Dodge I recommend using the official name.
• With Paralyzing Fear it might be more appropriate for each attacking Swordsman to roll individually.
• Pricing may need a closer look, across the board.

However, instead of addressing those issues, with this large of a themed army you have an excellent opportunity to develop some new unifying abilities, instead of simply repackaging pre-existing powers.

[dalu]

Originally Posted by Killometer

As the cards are written:[LIST][*]Viorica is way too cheap with Necromancy's range of 10, and the fact that right now she can replace any figure that is killed, regardless of who's army it was a part of.

That's true !
In my precedent post, I considered that she can only replace Skeletal figures.

But I still love your repackaging of pre-existing powers... familiar simple powers combined for a new experience...

[Tolamos]

Update on what I have been working on:
After much consideration, I have decided to make skeletal dodge only work on normal attacks. Dodging arrows and bullets is fine, but it just didn't make sense to me that a skeleton could dodge an explotion from a deathwalker or dragon breath.
Next, after reading the suggestions, I have brought the move down to 5, which in all honesty is still fast compared to the zombies.
Those are the two big things that I changed, but there are more, so I will just show you the updated cards:





p.s. I have also been working on the Vampire, but have yet to come up with something good. So far the best thing I have come up with is making her def = 4 and her points = 100. What do you think?

[dalu]

Originally Posted by Tolamos

Update on what I have been working on:
After much consideration, I have decided to make skeletal dodge only work on normal attacks. Dodging arrows and bullets is fine, but it just didn't make sense to me that a skeleton could dodge an explotion from a deathwalker or dragon breath.
Next, after reading the suggestions, I have brought the move down to 5, which in all honesty is still fast compared to the zombies.
Those are the two big things that I changed, but there are more, ...

p.s. I have also been working on the Vampire, but have yet to come up with something good. So far the best thing I have come up with is making her def = 4 and her points = 100. What do you think?

Time to test your customs on various maps and against various armies.
I think you must take 6 squads of Skeletal.

• Maybe Archers will fall to quickly now.
• Maybe the mixed skeletal army (Archer and Swordmen and Spearmen) will be hard to manage (order markers placement).
• Maybe Spearmen will reveal themselves to be always better (or worse) than Swordmen, or the contrary.

You have to fine tune Viorica, she must be:

• Attractive enough: more than 2 Skeletal Squads which have the same total cost (100 points).
• Strong enough: she must have a fair chance to survive a bit.
• Weak enough: your enemy must be tempted to kill her as soon as possible, and you must have to take great care of her.
• Not indispensable: the skeletal army must do well enough after she dies (not like an elemental army who must have Kurrok to be efficient).

Difficult but important task !

As she is now, you will put very few order markers on Viorica.
A Skeletal Squad will always do better than her, and her attack is to weak to be usefull, she will not often use "Life Drain".

PS: infos about the miniatures please.

[Tolamos]

Miniatures are all from Reaper Legendary Encounters.

[Wanderer999]

Wow your Viorica is the exact same sculpt that one of my customs Sophia uses. In my case, she's a vampire queen, not a necromancer.