The Book of Thanos (Infinity Quest)

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

If you want people to give any sort of help into your designs, or take your desire to see something balanced as genuine, maybe don't respond to it with "I don't think what you suggested is credible, but as long as people will think that's balanced, ok"
That not only pisses on the analysis of that person, it also goes on to say you don't even care if it's balanced as long as "the non-credible version is". It's just a stupid thing to say.

As for your take, starting with the opponent placing the Time gem as the best play, it makes no difference to what I suggested. There's 3 key glyphs at the start, and it doesn't matter how you choose to place them. So taking your own example:

1. Opposing team places Time gem.
2. Thanos places Reality gem.
3. Equips Space gem.

Guess what I'm gonna do? If I win initiative, I'm gonna use the Sapce gem immediately turn 1 to land on the Time gem, then blow the X to go grab the Reality gem.

1. Opposing team places Reality gem.
2. Thanos places either Space or Time gem and then he'll have the Reality gem before the opponent whichever way you go.

1. Opponent team places Space gem.
2. Thanos places either Reality or Time gem and then he'll have the Space gem before the opponent whichever way you go, unless the map is large.

So no matter how you slice it, the key is Thanos winning initiative, and then it's just disruption city for his opponents. He can use the Reality gem each OM reveal AND on the bonus turn from the Time gem, which means you can really screw with your opponents. So test whichever of those combos you like, but to discredit what I am saying is just careless and ignorant.

Hmmm... thinking about it, you're right. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say your suggestion wasn't credible as an insult, I was just trying to think my way around it and basically say that I didn't think it was a likely thing to happen in an actual game with counter play. Obviously, I didn't think around it properly (a little tired), but you're right with what you said. For some reason, I was thinking you needed Time to start and had to claim Space quickly to claim the third... logically, this might make the best counter play starting with Space, but that still leaves Thanos able to make a Time + Power or Time + Reality start really quickly. When I talked about balancing it around 'the non-credible version', I simply meant I was probably best testing it like that since, if he's balanced under ideal conditions, there shouldn't be an issue with him, even if I didn't, at the time, deem those ideal conditions to be a credible real game scenario.


I am so, so sorry. I have been trying my absolute hardest to be a decent project member and not get on people's nerves, but it seems even now, I can't manage it. I don't understand what the hell's wrong with me. I'll have to think about what's best for me and this project. I'm sorry.

[L0B5T3R]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I am so, so sorry. I have been trying my absolute hardest to be a decent project member and not get on people's nerves, but it seems even now, I can't manage it. I don't understand what the hell's wrong with me. I'll have to think about what's best for me and this project. I'm sorry.

Lazy be cool, you’ve been doing really good recently. This process is going really well and everyone is geeked about this design.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by L0B5T3R

Lazy be cool, you’ve been doing really good recently. This process is going really well and everyone is geeked about this design.

I'm sorry... I'm probably overreacting. I'm still struggling with feelings of worthlessness, and they get triggered really, really easily. It's just that I've been trying my best to repair my reputation after tanking it and it just felt at that moment as though I'd gone right back to ground zero.

[Arkham]

Relax. A simple apology and avoiding to make the mistake again is all that is needed. That's the only reason I called it out. Nobody is calling for any repercussions.

As for the design, take Power gem out of the mix as one that you should be going right for. The top 3 are Reality, Time, and Space. OM disruption is why the Joker is such a pain to deal with, and Reality is even better, especially when you combine it with Time. Dysole suggested it for a reason.

Space helps tremendously to build up the Snap and to further disrupt by dragging certain opposing figures across the map where the teammates who end up with the OMs can't even help.

Power is the 4th best, and should come out at the end of the 4th Round. Soul gem after that. Mind gem is last.

That's my take on what should be tested in this last set. A drop in life should be all that's needed to wrap this up, I wasn't calling for any other changes. Try a game out with:
Opponent places Time -> Thanos places Reality -> Equips Space
If he wins initiative use Space to grab Time then burn the X to grab Reality.
If he doesn't win initiative, just go grab Reality, then on the following turns immediately start messing with the OMs and try to get the Time gem.

Then for the other game:
Opponent places Reality -> Thanos places Time -> Equips Space
Same idea.

All 3 have the same idea however you slice it. Try to obtain all 3 gems out of the gate before your opponents. Disrupt as much as possible and try to dump those OMs on the weakest opponent, based on low movement or low attack or whatever to where their turns aren't as useful.

So on and so forth. And remember Reality can be used when you get your bonus turn with Time.

That's all I've got. I'd also try to stay right at 1,200 for armies. I think Thanos works well on his own. Avoids the opponent being able to use the Reality to any effect on him if they manage to get a hold of it.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Relax. A simple apology and avoiding to make the mistake again is all that is needed. That's the only reason I called it out. Nobody is calling for any repercussions.

Thank you. I still feel pretty crappy right now, but that's on me. I am sorry.


Here's the first test I just finished up (I was already over half way through when you came back with your keep to 1,200 suggestion - it's only 100 points anyway. Will certainly change what I'm planning to do for the second game though, as I was initially thinking more like 1,600.)


Name Of The Playtest Unit: Thanos (Infinity Quest)
Army Test 1
Map: Jotun’s Gap by Dignan (no glyphs)
Armies:
Thanos (Infinity Quest), Ted, Ringo (1,300 points)
vs.
Iron Man (Avengers), Star-Lord, Drax (vII), Nebula, Mantis (1,300 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Thanos’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: 2 wounds on Mantis, 5 on Star-Lord, 5 on Nebula
Times Infinity Stones placed: Reality placed by Guardians of the Galaxy at the start; Space placed by Thanos at start; Thanos starts with Time; Soul placed by Guardians at end of Round One; Mind placed by Guardians at end of Round Two; Power placed by Thanos at end of Round Three
Times Infinity Stones claimed: Time - start of game; Space and Reality - Round One, Turn Two; Soul - Round Two, Turn Four; Mind - Round Three, Turn One
Attacks boosted with Power Stone: Five
Times moved by Space Stone: Three times (once moving Drax with him, once moving Ringo with him)
OMs moved with Reality Stone: OM 3 moved from Mantis to Star-Lord in Round One, OM 3 moved from Mantis to Star-Lord in Round Two, OM3 and 1 moved from Mantis to Star-Lord in Round Three, OM2 and 3 moved from Mantis to Star-Lord in Round Four.
Bonus turns with Time Stone: Five
Figures conjured with Soul Stone: Star-Lord
Wounds inflicted by conjured figures: 1 on Nebula
OMs viewed with Mind Stone: All OMs for Round Four
One Half of All Life... used at the end of Round Four
Figures destroyed with One Half of All Life...: Ringo, Iron Man, Mantis
Rewritten Death used on the second turn of Round Three
Times Gauntlet lost: Once

The Guardians place the Reality Stone in a puddle of water near their start-zone and Thanos places the Space Stone at the foot of the eastern hill, and places the Time Stone in his Gaultlet.

Round One

The Guardians claim the initiative, Stark’s ego is kept in check and Star-Lord advances up the eastern hill.
Thanos flies up and claims the Space Stone, before using it to teleport into the puddle and claim the Reality Stone. Drax rushes up to him, eager for vengeance.
Drax lays into Thanos, inflicting two wounds.
Thanos moves OM 3 from Mantis to Star-Lord before using the Space Stone to teleport himself back to his base and Drax into a puddle next to him.
Star-Lord runs up the eastern hill and fires an incredible, well-aimed shot at Thanos, rolling all-skulls and inflicting two wounds.
Ted and Ringo charge Drax and lay into him from height, inflicting three wounds.
The Guardians place the Soul Stone in a puddle to the north, near their base.

Round Two

The Guardians claim the initiative, Stark forces himself to hold back and Drax lays into Thanos with three blows, inflicting two wounds with his second strike.
Ringo rolls all skulls and bites Drax’s head off before Ted rushes towards Star-Lord and attacks from lower ground, but Star-Lord evades damage.
Stark flies up next to Star-Lord and fires an explosive missile at Thanos, inflicting a wound on him, but Ringo is unharmed by the explosion.
Thanos moves the Order Marker 3 from Mantis to Star-Lord with the Reality Stone, before using the Space Stone to claim the Soul Stone, teleporting Ringo with him. He then flies to height on the western hill and fires a shot at Mantis, inflicting a wound.
Star-Lord shoots Ted in the face, blowing his head off.
Thanos blasts Mantis for a wound.
Ted expires and the Mind Stone appears in a puddle to the north.

Round Three

Thanos claims the initiative and moves OM 3 from Mantis to Star-Lord. He then flies to claim the Mind Gem and fires an ineffective blast at Mantis, before activating the Time Gem, moving OM 1 from Mantis to Star-Lord, flying up to Star-Lord and punching him to no avail. Star-Lord fires a shot at Thanos, but somehow completely misses. Nebula runs up and fires a shot at Thanos herself, getting a ludicrously lucky shot and shooting a hole through Thanos’s head... however, he soon uses the Reality Stone to undo all harm done to him, and keeps fighting.
The Power Gem appears right next to Thanos and Star-Lord.

Round Four

The Guardians claim the initiative and Stark holds himself back as Thanos views their Order Markers. Star-Lord picks up the Power Gem and strikes Thanos... but misses wildly again. Nebula charges her ‘father’, and strikes him with all of her fury, inflicting a wound.
Thanos moves OM 2 from Mantis to Star-Lord and punches Star-Lord, inflicting two wounds and causing the Power Gem to fly from his hand, dropping to the ground between him, Thanos and Stark. He then activates the Time Gem, moves OM 3 to Star-Lord and picks up the Power Gem, before punching Star-Lord for another wound and knocking him into the ruin, inflicting a fourth wound.
Star-Lord shoots Thanos in the face with a shot at full power, inflicting two wounds. He rolls a 1 to lose the gauntlet, but thanks to having all the stones, still holds onto it.
Thanos crushes the life out of Star-Lord and claims his soul for the Soul Stone, eliminating the Guardians’ last turn.
Thanos snaps his fingers, and one half of all life in the universe simply dissolves, including Ringo, Tony Stark and Mantis. Now it is just Nebula against the man who made her life one of constant pain.

Round Five

Nebula claims the initiative and charges Thanos, striking him to no avail.
Thanos punches Nebula, inflicting a wound and knocking her back two spaces, off the hill and into the shadow. He runs to the top of the hill next to her and strikes again from high ground, inflictting three wounds and knocking her back into a rocky outcrop, though she is unharmed by the impact. He then conjures the spirit of Star-Lord, who fires a shot at Nebula, inflicting a wound and leaving her so close to death.
Nebula charges Thanos and lays into him with a Vengeful Strike, inflicting two wounds and causing him to drop the Gauntlet as it flies into a northern puddle. She then strikes him, but he blocks.
Thanos flies to the puddle, taking a blow from Nebula on the way and reclaiming the Gauntlet. He fires a shot at her, but she has high ground and is blending into the shadow, and is unharmed.
Nebula charges Thanos - her Vengeful Strike fails, but her normal attack hits hard with an all skull blow, and she slits the Mad Titan’s throat.

Guardians of the Galaxy victorious, Nebula 5 wounds.
Overview: Another super close one! If Nebula's offence hadn't been so glorious at the end there, or had Thanos managed to inflict just one more wound on her, or had Thanos not gone after the Gauntlet and instead punched her from high ground (though, notably, when she had to shadow boost), that could have been Thanos's game. (I probably made a tactical error going after the Gauntlet, but it didn't seem clear at the time - I thought that, if Nebula survived that initial attack, I'd want to have that Gauntlet, but she took advantage of his period of vulnerability.) Then again, Thanos did get lucky a few times here, particularly getting a really good snap, the fact that his dinos were able to absolutely savage Drax quite quickly and he only lost the Gauntlet right near the end. Thanos is feeling like a titan, and I do prefer him with one more defence and one less life - it feels more thematic for him to be harder to hurt rather than easier to hurt and just taking more blows.
I'm not entirely sold on Reality vs. Power as a start after testing, but it's definitely still strong - I just find the ability to bulldoze through enemies with an attack of 8 in melee plus Time Gem extremely valuable, and having to wait until Round Four to do that feels painful. Then again, reducing enemy efficiency and mucking up their strategy is super valuable, and against any team with bad places for Order Markers such as Sidekicks or who rely on an at the back leader figure like Xavier to provide multiple activations, Reality is clearly superior and should be fairly dominant.

[Arkham]

Well, Reality really loses its sting when you have Mantis in the opposing army. She's literally a defense for specifically that purpose.

The thing about the Power gem not being as useful as the other 3, is that Thanos has a range of 6. He can use that to his advantage often, to attack with hieght advantage for 7. So an adjacent only of 8 doesn't make much of a difference compared to completely preventing power house hitters or leader hubs who get multi-turns, from acting at all. That's why the combo of Time + Reality is such a threat.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Well, Reality really loses its sting when you have Mantis in the opposing army. She's literally a defense for specifically that purpose.

The thing about the Power gem not being as useful as the other 3, is that Thanos has a range of 6. He can use that to his advantage often, to attack with hieght advantage for 7. So an adjacent only of 8 doesn't make much of a difference compared to completely preventing power house hitters or leader hubs who get multi-turns, from acting at all. That's why the combo of Time + Reality is such a threat.

Well, I entirely forgot she blocked that, so I had her not do so, so... go me. Haven't played her much, crap. I suppose by making that mistake, the game worked better as a test? Yeah, sorry about that.

[Karat]

Has the opposite been tried at all where the opponent chooses the glyphs Thanos wants least first? Might be some important data that we don't have if not.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Karat

Has the opposite been tried at all where the opponent chooses the glyphs Thanos wants least first? Might be some important data that we don't have if not.

Actually quite a good idea. If I put down Mind first, that means there's one starting Glyph that's pretty bad for him. Of course, that also allows him to really easily pick up any of the first two he wants.
Should I do that for the last test? Any thoughts on that last matchup?

[Tornado]

Maybe a CRB review of the current data. This is a design we could really use their perspective. Could you maybe compile the results with a note of how the glyphs played out in each match?

[Arkham]

I feel like the opponent placing the Mind gem at the start just to lessen the blow a tad, is only gonna lead to Thanos placing and equipping the 2 he wants most, thus giving them to him without even needing to win initiative to obtain them. He'll have the Reality and Time gems and then you can play keep away with the Mind gem to no real effect.

That's just my take though. @Dysole @Soundwarp SG-1 @dok

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

I feel like the opponent placing the Mind gem at the start just to lessen the blow a tad, is only gonna lead to Thanos placing and equipping the 2 he wants most, thus giving them to him without even needing to win initiative to obtain them. He'll have the Reality and Time gems and then you can play keep away with the Mind gem to no real effect.

That's just my take though. @Dysole @Soundwarp SG-1 @dok

If he finds it so easy to claim the three starting ones, though, as you said, it will at least give you buffer zone where he can only access two of the big three/four. In the end, though, dropping Space and trying to keep that away from him is probably the outright best strategy (unless you're confident you can win initiative and pick up, say, Time quickly).


A number of interesting strategies here - I think the three an opposing player is probably best off debating placing at the start are Space, Mind and Time (maybe Reality if Thanos has some low-powered allies?).