Point Adjustments for Tourney Play

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Gulp

This is a bit of a tangential rant meant to express my desire for more incorporation of customizations:
My main complaint, which I've raised in the BoV threads, is the lack of flexibility with the rules regarding castle walls. Castle wall pieces make great line of sight blockers, but due to resistant attitudes towards allowing a rule that says, "Units can't land on top of walls," we have a dead expansion. Not actually dead. It's just been mutated into a RttFF expansion. "Broken Skyline" uses wall pieces, but even now it is outdated thanks to the Protectors (as has already been discussed in the BoV threads).

Heavy/light snow and slippery/normal ice is tougher to remember than 'Units can't land on walls' and it would add another useful tool to some of the excellent map builders on this site.

If I may add my related counter-rant....

Hassle your local tournament organiser (or be one of those organisers). The BoV is the best of the best when it comes to maps, and it does a great job in that role. It isn't (and doesn't claim to be) a repository of all tournament worthy maps. I've been to tournaments that have used maps with topless castle walls. Nothing went wrong. I agree with both you and the BoV I guess: the best-of-the-best maps follow the castle wall rules; there are very good tournament maps that do not follow those rules and can be and should be (and are) used at tournaments.

Relating it back to this thread: if it's something you want to see at a tournament, make it happen. I'd rather play with the standard point totals; this may in part be due to a less competitive environment where I am and so I don't see a problem that needs fixing. That said, I'd happily go to a one-off event with altered point totals. I think I'd be unhappy with any movement to "re-standardise" scores as a new default in my area.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Gulp

My main complaint, which I've raised in the BoV threads, is the lack of flexibility with the rules regarding castle walls. Castle wall pieces make great line of sight blockers, but due to resistant attitudes towards allowing a rule that says, "Units can't land on top of walls," we have a dead expansion. Not actually dead. It's just been mutated into a RttFF expansion. "Broken Skyline" uses wall pieces, but even now it is outdated thanks to the Protectors (as has already been discussed in the BoV threads).

I would dispute this assesment of FotA on at least three counts:

1. Not allowing uncapped columns in the BoV doesn't mean they can't, won't, or shouldn't be used that way in tournament play.
   
   
2. The Protectors don't break nothin'. The Airborne Elite were around when that map was released, and they have at least as much potential to break the map as the PoU do. I'm not scared of PoU on that map unless I happen to be stuck with an all-melee, hero-based army.
   
   
3. I don't think the book is closed on more creative use of FotA with wall walks. There's three maps nominated for BoV at this moment that use it, which is just a slice of the BoV-eligible symmetric castle maps out there, which use a variety of different approaches to make the map playable for a wide range of armies. And then there's a few efforts to make tournament worthy asymmetric maps, where one army starts in the castle but this is balanced by the presence of glyphs or other positional advantages.

Just to be clear, I know this isn't your central point. I think ollie responded pretty well to what I perceive as your central point.

On to an unrelated response to ollie:

Originally Posted by ollie

Make the goal a tournament in which a bunch of different units get their share of the limelight (you might want to examine your current metagame closely; are you really seeing just some small fraction of the units?) and do what you've done. It will be unbalanced. However, seeing Kelda and the Obsidians at the top of the heap might be sufficient pay-off.

While I wouldn't really be interested in a considered effort to "balance" the points "fairly", I could see enjoying a one-off day where everyone had to rethink, almost from first principles, the form of their army.

I don't have a problem with this goal, and I actually think it's a pretty cool idea. Ultimately, it's a great test of one's metagaming acumen when stripped of the existing accepted wisdom (power rankings and so on). That said, I'm also interested in what point values would produce the most diverse set of units in play. That's obviously a harder problem, but an interesting one IMO.

[Elginb]

Re-pricing units is a fun parlor game, even if I never actually use the alternate pricing. I think it's important to determine what the causes of mis-pricing are. Here are some ideas:

1) Range is more dominant, but ranged units don't seem to be priced as such.
2) Flying is less dominant, but flying units usually cost more.
3) Squads are more dominant than Heroes, but Heroes cost much more on average.
4) Some units are seemingly priced for optimal conditions (Obsidian Guards are the prime example), but could reasonably be priced for average conditions, instead.
5) Some units have just proven themselves in tournament play to be better than their listed price.

Notice that some of the reasons are systematic (1, 2, 3) and others are more specific to any given unit (4, 5). I'm sure there are other valid reasons for mis-pricing, and some of the ones I've listed may be missing the real issue (for instance, is it being a squad or having multiple attacks that's the real boon?).

Once we've isolated the general reasons for mis-pricing, I suggest we develop some sort of formula to adjust units, while attempting to avoid over-adjusting units. Something like this:

If a unit has a ranged attack, +5 pts
If a unit is a squad or has multiple attacks, +5 pts
If a unit is a consistent tournament contender, +10 pts
If a unit has flying, -5 pts
If a unit is priced for optimal conditions, -10 pts

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Gulp]

Elginb, I was bored and decided to add try out your suggestion on A+ through B+. I skipped Marvel cuz I forget what most of those cards say. As noted I consider all A+ and A units to be tournament contenders.

Hope this helps out. If a unit was a ranged squad, I did +5 for ranged and +5 for squad, etc. just so you know how I was doing it.

-Gulp

Originally Posted by Elginb

If a unit has a ranged attack, +5 pts
If a unit is a squad or has multiple attacks, +5 pts
If a unit is a consistent tournament contender, +10 pts
If a unit has flying, -5 pts
If a unit is priced for optimal conditions, -10 pts

A+ and A figures ARE ALL ASSUMED TO BE TOURNAMENT CONTENDERS (cuz I just don't know enough to be accurate in that field)

A+
4th Mass. Line (70*) 90
Deathreavers (40*) 55
Major Q9 (180) 195
Marro Stingers (60*) 85
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV (80) 85
Sir Gilbert (105) 115

A
10th Regiment of Foot (75*) 95
Blastatrons (60*) 95
Braxas (210) 225
Captain America (220) skipped
Gladiatrons (80*) 95
Isamu (10) 20
Kaemon Awa(120) 140
Knights of Weston(70*) 85
Krav Maga Agents (100) 120
Laglor (110) 125
Marro Warriors (50)70
Major Q10 (150) 170
Me-Burq-Sa (50) 65
Nilfheim (185) 200

AT THIS POINT I DID NOT ADD +10 POINTS TO ANY UNIT FOR BEING A TOURNAMENT CONTENDER

A-
Agent Skahen (120) 130
Airborne Elite (110) 120
Alastair MacDirk (110) 110
Atlaga (90) 90
Cyprien Esenwein (150) 150
Eldgrim the Viking Champion (30) 30
Grimnak (120) 125 -- I counted Chomp as an added attack
Heavy Gruts (70*) 75
Marcu Esenwein (20) 15
Marcus Decimus Gallus (100) 100
Minions of Utgar (110*) 115
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider (50) 50
Roman Legionnaires (50*) 55
Silver Surfer (320) SKIPPED
Sonya Esenwein (45) 40
The Axegrinders of Burning Forge (70*) 75
Venom (150) SKIPPED
Zelrig (185) 180
Zetacron (60) 60

B+
Arrow Gruts (40*) 50
Aubrien Archers (70*) 80
Blade Gruts (40*) 45
Brave Arrow (50) 50
Capuan Gladiators (70*) 45
Crixus (90) 90
Krug (120) 125
Marrden Nagrubs (30*) 35
Marro Dividers (50*) 55
Microcorp Agents (100*) 120
Migol Ironwill (110) 110
Mohican River Tribe (70*) 80
Ne-Gok-Sa (90) 90
Sacred Band (50*) 55
Sentinels of Jandar (110*) 115
Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM (170) 170
Sir Hawthorne (90) 90
Spartacus (200) 200
Spider-Man (160) SKIPPED
Swog Rider (25*) 25
Theracus (40) 35
Tor-Kul-Na (220) 220
Venoc Vipers (40*) 45
Venoc Warlord (120) 120

THIS IS WHERE I STOPPED.

B
Abomination (320)
Arkmer (50)
Brunak (110)
Charos (210)
Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Finn the Viking Champion (80)
Fyorlag Spiders (40*)
Guilty McCreech (30)
Incredible Hulk (370)
Izumi Samurai (60)
James Murphy (60)
Marrden Hounds (90*)
Marro Drones (50*)
Marro Hive (160)
Nakita Agents (120)
Omnicron Repulsors (40*)
Omnicron Snipers (100*)
Otonashi (10)
Protectors of Ullar (110*)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-SOTM (120)
Sonlen (160)
Sujoah (185)
Syvarris (100)
Tagawa Samurai (120)
Ulginesh (150)
Warriors of Ashra (50*)
Wolves of Badru (80*)
Zombies of Morindan (60*)

B-
Anubian Wolves (75*)
Armoc Vipers (65*)
Ashigaru Harquebus (60*)
Emirroon (80)
Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan (65)
Jorhdawn (100)
Kato Katsuro (200)
Iron Man (240)
Kozuke Samurai (100)
Kyntela Gwyn (20)
MacDirk Warriors (80*)
Mimring (150)
Ornak (100)
Retiarius (90)
Sgt. Drake Alexader-ROTV (110)
Sir Denrick (100)
Su-Bak-Na (160)
Tagawa Samurai Archers (65*)
Thanos (360)
Thorgrim the Viking Champion (80)
Wo-Sa-Ga (135)

C+
Agent Carr (100)
Ashigaru Yari (40*)
Chardris (90)
Dr. Doom (245)
Deathstalkers (100*)
Kumiko (80)
Gurei-Oni (100)
Iskra Esenwein (50)
Master Win Chiu Woo (140)
Morsbane (100)
Ninjas of the Northern Wind (110)
Rechets of Bogdan (50)
Red Skull (190)
Sir Dupuis (150)
Tarn Viking Warriors (50)
Tornak (100)
Tul-Bak-Ra (130)
Valguard (110)

C
Dumutef Guard (25*)
Elite Onyx Vipers (100)
Gorillinators (90*)
Jotun (225)
Kee-Mo-Shi (130)
Khosumet the Darklord (75)
Parmenio (90)
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Shaolin Monks (80*)
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior (180)
Zettian Guards (70)

C-
Acolarh (110)
Dzu-Teh (75*)
Deathwalker 8000 (130)
Deathwalker 9000 (140)
Dünd (110)
Empress Kiova (90)
Grok Riders (130*)
Kelda the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Roman Archers (55*)
Runa (120)
Templar Cavalry (120*)
The Einar Imperium (140*)
Warden 816 (90)

D
Deadeye Dan (60)
Major X17(100)
Marro Drudge (50*)
Moriko (110)
Obsidian Guards (100*)
Shades of Bleakewoode (100*)
Shiori (60)
Sudema (140)

F
Deathwalker 7000 (100)
Hatamoto Taro (130)

[padlock]

I believe that, for the most part, the reason that some units appear to be so much better then others is because tourneys are not varied enough in their rules and objectives.

This becomes obvious when contrasting the regular power rankings with those for the heat of the battle type tourneys. Everything is completely different.

I suspect that if people considered games with alternate objectives (king of the hill, team games, capture the flag, etc.) as equally important as standard 'kill them all' games, instead of an interesting diversion, we would see a much wider variety of units considered viable.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by padlock

I believe that, for the most part, the reason that some units appear to be so much better then others is because tourneys are not varied enough in their rules and objectives.

This becomes obvious when contrasting the regular power rankings with those for the heat of the battle type tourneys. Everything is completely different.

The HoB rankings are made under the assumption that you are (or soon will be) engaged. The basic objective- kill the other guy- is the same. The rules make range an essentially useless stat unless it's on a really cheap (per card) or really tough (Q9) figure.

Unless it's a really simple objective, (like the race for the end of the map from the Trollsford Swamp map), killing the other guy is still a very important ability to have.

[padlock]

Originally Posted by Jexik

The HoB rankings are made under the assumption that you are (or soon will be) engaged. The basic objective- kill the other guy- is the same. The rules make range an essentially useless stat unless it's on a really cheap (per card) or really tough (Q9) figure.

Unless it's a really simple objective, (like the race for the end of the map from the Trollsford Swamp map), killing the other guy is still a very important ability to have.

Sure killing is still important, but, in my experience, having objectives definitely changes the worth of quite a number of figures. Let me give you an example.

I've played a few home games where 3 Glyphs of Brandar were placed strategically on the maps. At the end of every turn, the player who didn't just play would score 1 victory point if he controlled at least 2 of the glyphs. The games would continue until the end of a round after a certain number of victory points were scored. I found that with that format, heroes become relatively more important, and often the player who won would be the one who sustained more damage during the game.

This is a creative community, and I'm sure that if we put our minds to it, we could think of many interesting scenario based games which could really shake things up. The trick of course would be in agreeing which ones would be tournament worthy.

[Elginb]

I think it would be useful in this discussion to have a list of units by point value:

Hulk 370
Thanos 360
Silver Surfer 320
Abomination 320
Dr. Doom 245
Iron Man 240
Jotun 225
Captain America 220
Tor-Kul-Na 220
Charos 210
Braxas 210
-------------------------
Spartacus 200
Kato Katsuro 200
Red Skull 190
Zelrig 185
Sujoah 185
Nilfheim 185
Taelord 180
Major Q9 180
Sgt. Drake(SOTM) 170
Su-Bak-Na 160
Sonlen 160
Marro Hive 160
Spider-man 160
---------------------------
Venom 150
Ulginesh 150
Sir Dupuis 150
Mimring 150
Major Q10 150
Cyprien Esenwein 150
Sudema 140
Master Win Choo Woo 140
Deathwalker 9000 140
Einar Imperium 140
-----------------------------
Wo-Sa-Ga 135
Tul-Bak-Ra 130
Kee-Mo-Shi 130
Hatamoto Taro 130
Deathwalker 8000 130
Grok Riders 130
Venoc Warlord 120
Templar Cavalry 120
Tagawa Samurai 120
Runa 120
Raelin (SOTM) 120
Nakita Agents 120
Krug 120
Kaemon Awa 120
Grimnak 120
Agent Skahen 120
---------------------------
Valguard 110
Sgt. Drake 110
Sentinels 110
Protectors 110
Ninjas 110
Moriko 110
Minions 110
Migol Ironwill 110
Laglor 110
Dund 110
Brunak 110
Alastair MacDirk 110
Airborne Elite 110
Acolarh 110
---------------------------
Sir Gilbert 105
Tornak 100
Syvarris 100
Sir Denrick 100
Shades 100
Ornak 100
Omnicron Snipers 100
Obsidian Guards 100
Morsbane 100
Microcorps Agents 100
Marcus 100
Major X17 100
Krav Maga 100
Kozuke Samurai 100
Johrdawn 100
Gurei Oni 100
Elite Onyx Vipers 100
Deathwalker 7000 100
Deathstalkers 100
Agent Carr 100
-----------------------------
Warden 816 90
Sir Hawthorne 90
Retiarius 90
Parmenio 90
Ne-Gok-Sa 90
Marrden Hounds 90
Gorillinators 90
Empress Kiova 90
Crixus 90
Chardris 90
Atlaga 90
-----------------------------
Wolves of Badrus 80
Thorgrim 80
Shaolin Monks 80
Saylind 80
Raelin (ROTV) 80
MacDirk Warriors 80
Kumiko 80
Kelda 80
Gladiatrons 80
Finn 80
Emirroon 80
Concan 80
--------------------------------
Khosumet 75
James Murphy 75
Dzu-teh 75
Anubian Wolves 75
10th Regiment 75
Zettian Guards 70
Mohicans 70
Knights of Weston 70
Heavy Gruts 70
Capuans 70
Axegrinders 70
Aubrien Archers 70
4th Mass 70
--------------------------------
Tagawa Archers 65
Shotgun Sullivan 65
Armoc Vipers 65
Zombies 65
Zetacron 60
Shiori 60
Marro Stingers 60
Izumi Samurai 60
Deadeye Dan 60
Blastatrons 60
Harquebus 60
--------------------------------
Roman Archers 55
Warriors of Ashra 50
Tarn Vikings 50
Sacred Band 50
Roman Legionnaires 50
Rechets of Bogdan 50
Nerak 50
Me-Burq-Sa 50
Marro Warriors 50
Marro Drudge 50
Marro Drones 50
Marro Dividers 50
Iskra Esenwein 50
Brave Arrow 50
Arkmer 50
Sonya Esenwein 50
-------------------------------
Venoc Vipers 40
Theracus 40
Omnicron Repulsors 40
Fyorlag Spiders 40
Deathreavers 40
Blade Gruts 40
Yari 40
Arrow Gruts 40
--------------------------------
Marrden Nagrubs 30
Guilty McCreech 30
Eldgrim 30
Swog Rider 25
Dumutef Guard 25
Marcu Esenwein 20
Kyntela Gwyn 20
Isamu 10
Otonashi 10

For what it's worth, if we applied my (very cursory) formula:

1) If a unit has a ranged attack, +5 pts (including all ranged special powers that cause wounds)
2) If a unit is a squad or has multiple attacks, +5 pts
3) If a unit is a consistent tournament contender, +10 pts (I'll include A+ and A units from the Power Rankings)
4) If a unit has flying, -5 pts (including leaping)
5) If a unit is priced for optimal conditions, -10 pts

The list would look like this:

Hulk 360
Thanos 355
Silver Surfer 315
Abomination 315
Dr. Doom 240
Iron Man 240
Captain America 235
Jotun 225
Braxas 225
Tor-Kul-Na 225
--------------------
Charos 205
Nilfheim 200
Major Q9 200
Spartacus 195
Kato Katsuro 195
Red Skull 195
Zelrig 185
Sujoah 180
Taelord 170
Sgt. Drake(SOTM) 170
Sonlen 170
Major Q10 170
----------------------
Su-Bak-Na 155
Marro Hive 155
Spider-man 155
Mimring 155
Cyprien Esenwein 150
Venom 145
Ulginesh 145
Sir Dupuis 145
Sudema 145
Kaemon Awa 140
Master Win Choo Woo 140
Deathwalker 9000 140
Einar Imperium 140
-----------------------
Wo-Sa-Ga 135
Kee-Mo-Shi 135
Deathwalker 8000 135
Tul-Bak-Ra 130
Grok Riders 130
Agent Skahen 130
Laglor 130
Tagawa Samurai 125
Hatamoto Taro 125
Nakita Agents 125
Krug 125
Grimnak 125
-----------------------------
Templar Cavalry 120
Runa 120
Raelin (SOTM) 120
Krav Maga 120
Moriko 115
Venoc Warlord 115
Brunak 115
Alastair MacDirk 115
Airborne Elite 115
Sir Gilbert 115
------------------------
Valguard 110
Syvarris 110
Sentinels 110
Protectors 110
Ninjas 110
Minions 110
Migol Ironwill 110
Omnicron Snipers 110
---------------------------
Sgt. Drake 105
Dund 105
Acolarh 105
Obsidian Guards 105
Microcorps Agents 105
Kozuke Samurai 105
Johrdawn 105
Elite Onyx Vipers 105
Deathstalkers 105
Agent Carr 105
-------------------------
Morsbane 100
Marcus 100
Tornak 100
Deathwalker 7000 100
Major X17 95
Sir Denrick 95
Shades 95
Ornak 95
Gurei Oni 95
Warden 816 95
Sir Hawthorne 95
Marrden Hounds 95
Gorillinators 95
Gladiatrons 95
10th Regiment 95
-------------------------
Retiarius 90
Parmenio 90
Ne-Gok-Sa 90
Crixus 90
Chardris 90
Wolves of Badrus 90
4th Mass 90
Atlaga 85
Empress Kiova 85
Raelin (ROTV) 85
MacDirk Warriors 85
Kumiko 85
Knights of Weston 85
James Murphy 85
-----------------------------
Thorgrim 80
Zettian Guards 80
Mohicans 80
Anubian Wolves 80
Finn 80
Shaolin Monks 80
Marro Stingers 80
Blastatrons 80
---------------------------
Emirroon 75
Concan 75
Heavy Gruts 75
Khosumet 75
Dzu-teh 75
Axegrinders 75
Capuans 75
Aubrien Archers 75
Tagawa Archers 75
Shotgun Sullivan 75
----------------------------
Saylind 70
Kelda 70
Armoc Vipers 70
Marro Warriors 70
Zombies 70
Harquebus 70
Zetacron 65
Izumi Samurai 65
Me-Burq-Sa 65
Deadeye Dan 60
Roman Archers 60
Shiori 60
----------------------------
Tarn Vikings 55
Sacred Band 55
Roman Legionnaires 55
Deathreavers 55
Marro Drudge 55
Warriors of Ashra 50
Nerak 50
Marro Drones 50
Marro Dividers 50
Brave Arrow 50
Arkmer 50
Arrow Gruts 50
---------------------------
Rechets of Bogdan 45
Omnicron Repulsors 45
Blade Gruts 45
Iskra Esenwein 40
Sonya Esenwein 40
Venoc Vipers 40
Fyorlag Spiders 40
Yari 40
Guilty McCreech 40
---------------------------
Marrden Nagrubs 35
Eldgrim 35
Theracus 30
Swog Rider 25
Dumutef Guard 20
Isamu 20
Marcu Esenwein 15
Kyntela Gwyn 15
Otonashi 5