Classic League IX: A Taste of Gen Con - CONGRATS KEVINDOLA

[dok]

Originally Posted by kevindola

I think there are a few points, besides scatter, as to why they do slow the game down more than other tough, numberous squads, but why are we saying 'absent scatter'?

Because you chose to discuss a straw man argument that I wasn't making, and rather than ignore it completely I took it up and pointed out that there are some occasions when I would basically agree with it.

Originally Posted by kevindola

I think everyone who complains about deathreavers slowing the game down is primarily talking about scatter. @Sir Heroscape can speak for himself, but I'm sure that was foremost in his mind.

I'm sure it was, but it's not always relevant. It wasn't relevant in the game I played with 31 rats, where there were maybe 3 scatter turns taken in the entire game (I only clearly remember one, but there might have been one or two more). Similarly, I am unlikely to get more than a token scatter or two in my game with vegie.

Originally Posted by kevindola

The comparative speed of deathreaver play between two players I don't think is relevant to the claim of 'deathreavers are slow' (which I guess we are inferring that is what Sir H meant with his comment) so that's why I was asking for clarity on that statement.

It's relevant on multiple dimensions here. SirH's statement, in my mind, boils down to "rats = scatter = slow game". My point is that ignores players and matchups, both of which matter a lot.

My semifinal will have 3 times more rats in play than yours. Which game do you think will take longer to complete?

[vegietarian18]

Don't worry kevin I will play twice as slow so dok is wrong

[kevindola]

Originally Posted by dok

Because you chose to discuss a straw man argument that I wasn't making, and rather than ignore it completely I took it up and pointed out that there are some occasions when I would basically agree with it.

Ok, now I understand the 'absent scatter' part as your were discussing the matchups where scatter isn't used in the game. I don't think that is relevant, but you thought my inference about your statement wasn't relevant so all clear there.

Originally Posted by dok

I'm sure it was, but it's not always relevant. It wasn't relevant in the game I played with 31 rats, where there were maybe 3 scatter turns taken in the entire game (I only clearly remember one, but there might have been one or two more). Similarly, I am unlikely to get more than a token scatter or two in my game with vegie.

Ok, well I don't think the general comment of rats=slow should be countered with pointing out that some games don't use scatter with deathreavers. I think there is an argument name for using a nontypical example as the argument point.

Originally Posted by dok

It's relevant on multiple dimensions here. SirH's statement, in my mind, boils down to "rats = scatter = slow game". My point is that ignores players and matchups, both of which matter a lot.

My semifinal will have 3 times more rats in play than yours. Which game do you think will take longer to complete?

I don't think the '=' in your statements are absolutes....of course there are always corner examples where you're playing against nothing but black wyrmlings or Braxas x3.

So I think we fundamentally disagree here on how to judge a figure's impact on the speed of a game. This led to my misinterpretation of the initial comment. With that in mind the answer to your question based on how I evaluate the issue would be:

I think the game would take longer if Kinseth and I were playing your matchup than the game we are playing with our matchup.

[dok]

Originally Posted by kevindola

I understand the 'absent scatter' part as your were discussing the matchups where scatter isn't used in the game. I don't think that is relevant

How is it not relevant when it pertains directly to the rats I am using in my game? This isn't a theoretical for me; it's the situation I am actually planning to face.

Originally Posted by kevindola

but you thought my inference about your statement wasn't relevant so all clear there.

Your inference of what I meant was incorrect, but the argument you brought out there was sufficiently relevant that I chose to comment on it.

Originally Posted by kevindola

Ok, well I don't think the general comment of rats=slow should be countered with pointing out that some games don't use scatter with deathreavers.

Again, this seems like a straw man characterization of my argument. My argument does not hinge on there being some games that don't use scatter. While games involving rats probably tend to be slower on average, this is a relatively small factor compared to many others, most notably the players themselves. And, yes, scatter isn't always in play.

Originally Posted by kevindola

of course there are always corner examples where you're playing against nothing but black wyrmlings or Braxas x3.

Or Q9/Q10/Nilfheim/Kaemon/wyrms/etc. It's not a trivial slice of the meta.

Even in the realm of normal attacks, there are matchups where the scatter decisions end up being pretty trivial and don't add significantly to the pace of play even when the players aren't the quickest.

Originally Posted by kevindola

So I think we fundamentally disagree here on how to judge a figure's impact on the speed of a game.

Maybe, but I think the disconnect is more that you're asking a different question than I am. You are trying to discuss whether a given card leads to longer games on average, ceritis paribus. I want to consider context and look at how long games will actually take.

The most fundamental question we are getting at is: "Should concern about my games taking too long keep me from playing deathreavers?" For me, the answer is no. I can justify that because I am confident that I can make my scatter decisions reasonably quickly (along with the rest of my decisions) and keep the game moving.

[Kinseth]

FWIW - I don't think the game time would be different if I were running Rats army vs non-rats army. Typically with a Rats army, you are sitting behind the screen. Therefore deciding what to do with Q9 isn't THAT hard.

I liked it better when TheLegendaryIrishSword still played heroscape...

[vegietarian18]

The dok special was too much for dok to handle and I got my second finals spot in two days. Syvarris shot down my Raelin early and escaped with very few rat bites. I was forced to bring out Q9 and hope his defense held out, and it did. He got 2 wounds on Kaemon with his normal as he climbed up, then Queglixed him a turn later to knock off 2 OMs. He took the free time to kill Syvarris and take the top of the hill, gunned down Zetacron, then 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1ed two Krav as they came out. I thought I was done for after the Raelin assassination went so well but Q9 just held his ground. Good game

[dok]

Total scatter count:

Spoiler Alert!

zero, suckas

[kevindola]

Originally Posted by kevindola

kevindola (4-0) v. Kinseth (3-1)
kevindola (A dwarf, a Kyrie, and a Marro Warlord walk into a Bar): Romans x3, Forgehammer, Me-Burq-Sa, Krav Maga, Raelin (RotV)
Kinseth (Sizzling Bacon!): deathreavers x2, Major Q9, Raelin (RotV), Rhogar Dragonspine, Arkmer

GC hiatus is over. Kinseth and I are planning on playing and completing the semifinals tomorrow (8/24) around lunch time 11am-12pm central.

[kevindola]

Quite a game with Kinseth. I needed a strong stretch of dice to pull this one out. Q9, Raelin, and deathreavers are a tall order for anything and especially when you don't have a special attack.

I opened up with suicide Kravs, winning initiative and was able to get 3 attacks down on Raelin that netted 4 wounds on the Kyrie. I felt good about getting at least one more shot off with the kravs (depending on where Kinseth's OM2 was I considered I might get all 3), but the kravs couldn't deal with the attack power of the deathreavers and no kravs survived to attack Raelin again on my OM3.

In Round 2 I went suicide MBS, because as I did the math, I wasn't going to win against 9 defense Q9 and 6 defense rats. On my second try, MBS cracked through and took down Raelin's last life. By the end of round 2 I had killed Rae and 1/8 rats. My Krav were gone and 2 hits on MBS. I judged it worth the damage.

In Round 3, Kinseth concentrated on my Raelin who I moved up while I started the process of rolling up Romans and Forge. I think Kinseth spent one more OM on deathreavers in this round but that was it on them. Kinseth was only able to hit Raelin for 1 before he started feeling uncomfortable with the proximity of my troops (I killed 2 more rats leaving 5)

In Round 4 I was able to kill another pair of rats (leaving 3). Commander's strike was very useful at taking down rats and opening gaps. Q9 retreated instead of continuing the attack against Raelin taking down 2 Romans (rolling 5-6 defense) on his way back to his startzone. MBS still puttering around hit a paralyzing stare against Rhogar and did 3 wounds there.

Matchup: 1 life MBS, 10 Romans, 5 life Mog, 4 life Rae vs. 3 deathreavers, Q9, Arky, 3 life Rhogar

Rounds 5 and 6. With Q9 back in the startzone I made the decision to roll up the remainder of my army (several Romans were still in my SZ) instead of charing with what was forward. I cleared out the rest of the rats, but Q9 and Arkmer combined to kill MBS and Raelin, before the bulk of my army was ready for a charge.

Matchup: Forgehammer (5), 10 Romans vs. Q9, Rhogar (3), Arkmer


Round 7: Mogrimm and the Romans charge in killing Arkmer (who missed both engagement strike opportunities, the one against the Roman crucial). Q9 blasted away at Forgehammer and Romans while Rhogar was hacked through. The dwarf leader and a pair of Romans go down.

Endgame:

Q9 at full health vs. 8 Romans

I was only able to engage Q9 with 3 at a time, and I won both of the crucial initiatives in the rounds this took. Q9 took out 5 of my Romans, but in the end there were too many.

I took the victory with 3 Romans left.

[kevindola]

Finals are on Common Ground (Wannok, Lodin)
The player whose name is italicized won the diceoff and chooses whom places first

kevindola (5-0) v. vegietarian18 (5-1)
kevindola (Empiric Victory): Marro Stingers x5, Zelrig
vegietarian18 (drainin' & dragons): Marro Stingers x5, Zelrig

[Kinseth]

I needed Init switch at the end, last 3-4 rounds KD won init. I think I win one of those, and I win. Was a fun game though, and well played.

[kevindola]

Finishing up the Taste of Gencon with the finals tomorrow (8/29) at around 12:30pm central.

I think this will be my first ever mirror match.