The Book of Wong

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by dok

I agree it's not ideal, of course, but for me it's hardly a buzzkill. Competitive play with C3G figures is ultimately a pretty tiny fraction of the games played with these designs, and it would have been pretty easy for the project to just collectively shrug about these extreme designs. Creating the re-eval process, to me, really shows that the Heroes and the C3G project have a commitment to quality.

I agree that it's cool to have the commitment to quality. The buzzkill part if it to me, is the time and energy required to fix stuff that should have been done better in the first place. There was a time when things were rushed and there was a push to get X amount of units done at a pretty breakneck pace. Subsequently, some designs may have suffered for it.

I relate it to work and doing a job faster than should because the boss is pushing. Then you do it and there are issues that you get callbacks on to redo things that should have been done right in the first place. Something that may have taken 4 days to do correctly, you rushed to do in 2 1/2. But then after going back and fixing stuff, now you are up to a total of 5 1/2 days for that job, and the embarrassment with the customer that it wasn't done right to begin with. In the real world, it cost the boss/company more money. Here, it just takes more time.

[IAmBatman]

It sure was fun getting all that stuff out and into the hands of players, though.

Also, even with our current processes, I'm sure we'll have some stuff in need of reevaluation. Even the official guys had stuff that, once hundreds of folks had played them hundreds of times, were clearly just a little too good (Raelin, Rats) or just a little too weak for their costs (Taelord, Dund).

[Hahma]

True enough

Though, I would hope that defensive boosts and such that can make pods such suckfests for the opponents, would be scrutinized more than they were before. So maybe those won't continue to be the reeval projects down the road. Sure there may be something I'm sure.

Ultimately, to me anyway, not every unit has to be a superstar. There can certainly be some fun units that are just "ok" for competitive uses, but "great" for fun thematic uses. The less of an A+ a unit is, the less likely it's going to be OP down the road with another unit that it has synergy with.

[IAmBatman]

For sure. I think the difficulties come when you try to nail the theme on something and end up not realizing that when combined with something else it can be really nasty. I think that was the case with Bizarro, for instance.

Having the paradigm shift of thinking about defensive pods and how such figures act in combination should definitely help us going forward, though, especially after the main culprits are all finished going through the revamping process. Major kudos to TrollBrute and Viegon (among others) for continuing to hack away at that stuff. I just don't have the stomach for it, sadly.

though!

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I don't think this is at all clear from the card text. I'd recommend adjusting the power, especially since it doesn't seem like much of a candidate for re-use and there's plenty of room on the card. Just tacking on an extra sentence, to the tune of this, should do it:

Alternatively, a strategy something more like this might also work:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

You're not calculating the number of wounds his master would have received and then transferring them to Wong, though - you're calculating the number of wounds Wong would've received if the master's defense roll were his own. So his master defends, then the amount of skulls that are unblocked go directly to Wong at that point. Magical Defense never comes into play.

Not sure how to express that more clearly in the card or FAQ text, but those FAQs don't work, because Magical Defense isn't relevant in order to be ignored. If it were, it'd be because the Master was applying the wounds to himself and then transferring them to Wong, and that's not how the power works.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Fair enough. I think I'm seeing the intended order of operations a little more clearly now, but it still feels a little easy to misplay to me. Kind of a tricky wording, though. Lacking a better idea, I'll put it on the backburner for now. (Anyone with a good idea about how to really clarify this in the power is welcome to jump in, though)

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Yeah, I think the issue is inserting this power after the defense and before the wounds are placed. Were it placed when defense was rolled (so Wong rolls for defense) or after wounds would be taken (so Wong takes the wounds his Master would've taken) it'd be clearer in either direction. But the desired timing of this mechanic makes it real murky.

Originally Posted by Viegon

It's a messy power, but I'm not convinced it's really an issue. If we do want to try to clarify it, I think we'd be best off with something like:

It's still not perfect but the "all" helps enforce the intent I think.

Originally Posted by quozl

That seems more confusing to me. How about this?

Originally Posted by dok

This version brings up the engagement issues we've seen elsewhere though. If someone with Master Martial Artist is adjacent to Wong's Master but not Wong, does the autoskull apply?

Originally Posted by Viegon

Not a fan, really. I think the "as if Wong was rolling" will just confuse players.

Would reconfiguring the structure of my suggestion help?

Originally Posted by quozl

Seems about the same as what we have now.

Reviving this discussion with all the relevant posts I could find, and tagging the other Heroes: @SirGalahad , @Karat , @johnny139 , @TrollBrute .

[Karat]

I have sort of been following this, but what about something more like this?

KAN'S OATH
Anytime Wong is adjacent to his Master and Wong's Master rolls defense dice against an attack, before applying any other special power, you may choose to have Wong immediately receive all wounds from the attack instead of his Master.

I think this would solve all the issues while leaving it concise. Not sure the wording is perfect, but it conveys the meaning and I used special power as I'm sure there will be some MD figure somewhere that may have some other power that could be applied.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Karat

I have sort of been following this, but what about something more like this?

I think this would solve all the issues while leaving it concise. Not sure the wording is perfect, but it conveys the meaning and I used special power as I'm sure there will be some MD figure somewhere that may have some other power that could be applied.

Hmm, not bad, though I worry about how it might interact with other passive abilities (such as Villainous Duty or Self-Sacrifice).

[IAmBatman]

It just says you have to choose to use this or not before you choose to use those. So I think that circumvents those if you choose to use this? Which I'm fine with. Maybe put an "immediately" in there, as in "you may choose to have Wong immediately receive all wounds"?

[Karat]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

It just says you have to choose to use this or not before you choose to use those. So I think that circumvents those if you choose to use this? Which I'm fine with. Maybe put an "immediately" in there, as in "you may choose to have Wong immediately receive all wounds"?

Yea, that's where I sit. As the controlling player, with the exception of Bizarro (would probably require a roll off), you choose whether to give Wong the wounds or use their special power.

Good call on the immediately though.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think "immediately" would/should chop off the ability to apply those defensive powers. Thoughts from JustaBill or Ronin or the CRB guys would be good here to verify, though.

[SirGalahad]

I don't really feel a change is necessary, but if one has to be made this last version will work.

[Ronin]

I think Karat's suggestion cuts out the room for misinterpretation. Maybe change "applying any other special power" to "using...", though. Don't think C3G's ever used "apply" in that context.